1
00:00:05,390 --> 00:00:02,960
ordinary people are seeing extraordinary

2
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:05,400
things in our skies but how has it

3
00:00:10,250 --> 00:00:07,770
changed those involved from author Ryan

4
00:00:12,140 --> 00:00:10,260
spread somewhere in the skies a human

5
00:00:13,789 --> 00:00:12,150
approach to an alien phenomenon is a

6
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:13,799
personal journey that also weaves

7
00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:16,410
together a story of stories furiously

8
00:00:20,150 --> 00:00:18,090
pumping new blood into the heart of

9
00:00:22,490 --> 00:00:20,160
these mysteries one inextricable

10
00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:22,500
experience at a time now available on

11
00:00:26,750 --> 00:00:24,900
Amazon in paperback and ebook for more

12
00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:26,760
information visit somewhere in the skies

13
00:00:42,650 --> 00:00:58,820
[Music]

14
00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:01,110
welcome to somewhere in the skies I'm

15
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:03,430
your host Ryan Sprague so by the time

16
00:01:07,590 --> 00:01:05,170
you're hearing this episode I am either

17
00:01:10,140 --> 00:01:07,600
in Liverpool Nova Scotia for the East

18
00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:10,150
Coast Paragon or I am in the air flying

19
00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:12,310
to Syracuse to visit my parents either

20
00:01:16,230 --> 00:01:14,530
way I do have to give a warning that the

21
00:01:18,690 --> 00:01:16,240
next two weeks are going to be little

22
00:01:21,630 --> 00:01:18,700
crazy for me as I am moving across the

23
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:21,640
country to Los Angeles this is a very

24
00:01:26,790 --> 00:01:24,250
exciting time for me but it is also been

25
00:01:28,109 --> 00:01:26,800
one of the busiest nights of my life so

26
00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:28,119
I hope you'll bear with me through

27
00:01:33,180 --> 00:01:31,210
August now this intense traveling

28
00:01:34,950 --> 00:01:33,190
itinerary may or may not affect the show

29
00:01:36,749 --> 00:01:34,960
in terms of release dates but you can

30
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:36,759
always keep up to date on Twitter just

31
00:01:40,710 --> 00:01:39,130
follow at similar skies or you can

32
00:01:42,749 --> 00:01:40,720
always visit our very active Facebook

33
00:01:45,180 --> 00:01:42,759
page just search for somewhere in the

34
00:01:47,999 --> 00:01:45,190
skies podcast request to join and I will

35
00:01:50,279 --> 00:01:48,009
give you the proverbial skeletons today

36
00:01:53,010 --> 00:01:50,289
on the show I kick back have a couple

37
00:01:54,990 --> 00:01:53,020
maple whiskeys on the rocks and talk to

38
00:01:56,700 --> 00:01:55,000
my good friend and colleague MJ pandyas

39
00:01:59,219 --> 00:01:56,710
he was drinking a wonderful scotch

40
00:02:01,080 --> 00:01:59,229
really showed me up there on J so let's

41
00:02:03,570 --> 00:02:01,090
hear a little bit about MJ for those who

42
00:02:05,669 --> 00:02:03,580
may not know who this dude is MJ is a

43
00:02:07,740 --> 00:02:05,679
writer blogger and theorist with a

44
00:02:10,410 --> 00:02:07,750
background in critical theory history

45
00:02:12,150 --> 00:02:10,420
and cultural studies who critically and

46
00:02:14,730 --> 00:02:12,160
philosophically examines the weird

47
00:02:16,830 --> 00:02:14,740
estranged and the anomalous he was a

48
00:02:18,780 --> 00:02:16,840
former field investigator with MUFON and

49
00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:18,790
he has been featured on multiple

50
00:02:23,670 --> 00:02:21,310
podcasts and contributes to mysterious

51
00:02:25,770 --> 00:02:23,680
universe and rohnke planet his work is

52
00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:25,780
also featured in a new book entitled the

53
00:02:31,620 --> 00:02:28,510
UFOs referring the debate he also runs

54
00:02:33,540 --> 00:02:31,630
the very popular blog Tara obscure this

55
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:33,550
was an extremely laid-back and

56
00:02:38,790 --> 00:02:35,770
wide-ranging discussion so I hope you'll

57
00:02:41,309 --> 00:02:38,800
grab a beer a glass of wine some whiskey

58
00:02:43,860 --> 00:02:41,319
or cup of coffee whatever your poison is

59
00:02:46,350 --> 00:02:43,870
and enjoy our discussion with MJ baniyas

60
00:02:49,500 --> 00:02:46,360
MJ thanks so much for joining me tonight

61
00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:49,510
man it is a pleasure to be here and I

62
00:02:54,059 --> 00:02:51,550
know before we started recording we

63
00:02:55,949 --> 00:02:54,069
shared a photo with each other about

64
00:02:57,390 --> 00:02:55,959
what we're drinking tonight so let's

65
00:02:59,820 --> 00:02:57,400
share with the audience what we got

66
00:03:02,520 --> 00:02:59,830
going on what are you drinking okay so

67
00:03:06,539 --> 00:03:02,530
in front of me I have a beautiful dome

68
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:06,549
our 15 year old Scotch shits a sherry

69
00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:08,090
cask so it's their sort of dark

70
00:03:13,630 --> 00:03:11,840
sort of more booze your special squash

71
00:03:16,990 --> 00:03:13,640
that they produced so it's very very

72
00:03:19,540 --> 00:03:17,000
rich very very alcohol you look pretty

73
00:03:20,830 --> 00:03:19,550
hot in the booze so I'm really enjoying

74
00:03:22,690 --> 00:03:20,840
it right now it's getting me good and

75
00:03:26,050 --> 00:03:22,700
ready for this interview oh good man

76
00:03:28,630 --> 00:03:26,060
well you classy son-of-a-bitch I am

77
00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:28,640
drinking snow wheat this is a maple

78
00:03:33,699 --> 00:03:30,890
whiskey out of upstate New York let me

79
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:33,709
see dark Island spirits they're called I

80
00:03:39,460 --> 00:03:36,530
know I visited this distillery when I

81
00:03:41,410 --> 00:03:39,470
was on vacation last year and it was

82
00:03:42,910 --> 00:03:41,420
awesome they had every kind of flavored

83
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:42,920
whiskey you can think of I'm usually

84
00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:45,290
just a straight up urban guy but I'm

85
00:03:48,789 --> 00:03:46,640
really starting to get hooked on these

86
00:03:50,650 --> 00:03:48,799
flavored things I don't know if that's a

87
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:50,660
good thing or bad but it's certainly

88
00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:52,250
deadly because half the bottle is

89
00:04:01,360 --> 00:03:56,110
missing already ah that is deadly yeah

90
00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:01,370
well serious problem yeah if that's the

91
00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:03,410
only advice I have in life I'll take it

92
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:07,640
yeah you're okay so I'm Jane for those

93
00:04:12,309 --> 00:04:09,890
who may not know who you are what you do

94
00:04:13,750 --> 00:04:12,319
how we got connected would you mind sort

95
00:04:16,330 --> 00:04:13,760
of running us through what got you

96
00:04:18,759 --> 00:04:16,340
interested in UFOs how long have you

97
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:18,769
been researching it and what got us to

98
00:04:25,750 --> 00:04:21,610
this conversation today brother

99
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:25,760
Wow so well I know you know we'll start

100
00:04:34,029 --> 00:04:30,490
with my academic career in university

101
00:04:36,460 --> 00:04:34,039
was related to critical theory and

102
00:04:39,159 --> 00:04:36,470
cultural studies so the sort of the

103
00:04:41,409 --> 00:04:39,169
philosophy of society the philosophy of

104
00:04:44,770 --> 00:04:41,419
sort of popular culture that's kind of

105
00:04:46,810 --> 00:04:44,780
my sort of academic jam and I really did

106
00:04:49,750 --> 00:04:46,820
a lot of sort of research and work in

107
00:04:51,879 --> 00:04:49,760
the study of subcultures and I pry I

108
00:04:53,650 --> 00:04:51,889
sort of focused a lot more sort of on on

109
00:04:55,510 --> 00:04:53,660
music subcultures primarily sort of punk

110
00:04:58,469 --> 00:04:55,520
rockin and like goth culture and all

111
00:05:00,820 --> 00:04:58,479
that but I quickly started to sort of

112
00:05:02,589 --> 00:05:00,830
see sort of connections in some of those

113
00:05:05,110 --> 00:05:02,599
cultures to like aspects within the

114
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:05,120
paranormal and I never really touched on

115
00:05:08,409 --> 00:05:07,010
that ever in any sort of essays I wrote

116
00:05:09,909 --> 00:05:08,419
for a university or anything like that I

117
00:05:12,339 --> 00:05:09,919
sort of always found it interesting I

118
00:05:15,850 --> 00:05:12,349
suppose but I never really sort of saw

119
00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:15,860
the connection and you know I've always

120
00:05:21,740 --> 00:05:18,110
kind of been into the sort of UFO and

121
00:05:23,990 --> 00:05:21,750
science fiction and alien kind of

122
00:05:24,980 --> 00:05:24,000
you know TV shows and the movies and all

123
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:24,990
that stuff

124
00:05:30,350 --> 00:05:27,210
but the two never really mixed until

125
00:05:32,510 --> 00:05:30,360
probably about three years ago where I

126
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:32,520
sort of met up with Chris Rakowski who's

127
00:05:36,740 --> 00:05:35,370
another sort of UFO guy and we started

128
00:05:38,330 --> 00:05:36,750
chatting and he said you know it would

129
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:38,340
be an interesting thing to bring sort of

130
00:05:44,779 --> 00:05:41,250
this idea of critical theory and

131
00:05:45,890 --> 00:05:44,789
philosophy to the UFO field and the UFO

132
00:05:47,629 --> 00:05:45,900
question because there's not a lot of

133
00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:47,639
people doing it so I started kind of

134
00:05:50,450 --> 00:05:48,930
explore a little more and I started to

135
00:05:52,339 --> 00:05:50,460
read a little more and I sort of started

136
00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:52,349
to dig into sort of UFO casework a

137
00:05:57,950 --> 00:05:55,110
little more and I kind of found my niche

138
00:06:00,680 --> 00:05:57,960
I joined MUFON I became a MUFON field

139
00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:00,690
investigator about two years ago and I

140
00:06:05,390 --> 00:06:02,310
did that and I have to be honest I

141
00:06:08,990 --> 00:06:05,400
recently left MUFON for sort of I guess

142
00:06:10,999 --> 00:06:09,000
supposed political reasons um but I

143
00:06:13,969 --> 00:06:11,009
really enjoyed sort of investigating UFO

144
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:13,979
cases and then I started writing about

145
00:06:18,019 --> 00:06:16,289
some of my experiences and I've written

146
00:06:19,719 --> 00:06:18,029
for a real planet which is Jason

147
00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:19,729
McClellan and Maureen Elsberry

148
00:06:25,610 --> 00:06:22,830
website and then I started writing for

149
00:06:27,649 --> 00:06:25,620
mysterious universe and I started my own

150
00:06:30,140 --> 00:06:27,659
blog sort of around that same time

151
00:06:33,950 --> 00:06:30,150
called terrib-- Sierra where I sort of

152
00:06:35,930 --> 00:06:33,960
talk about the UFO question and I apply

153
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:35,940
sort of the philosophical lens or the

154
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:40,050
Critical sort of cultural lens to it and

155
00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:42,330
I approach the UFO question not

156
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:44,969
necessarily from trying to figure out

157
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:46,650
what UFOs are or what aliens are or

158
00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:48,210
whatever but rather sort of what do

159
00:06:52,999 --> 00:06:50,969
humans do when we deal with that

160
00:06:56,089 --> 00:06:53,009
phenomena or what do how do humans react

161
00:06:58,640 --> 00:06:56,099
or how to society as a whole react to

162
00:07:01,640 --> 00:06:58,650
the UFO phenomena so that's kind of my

163
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:01,650
personal gem and then when my wheelhouse

164
00:07:08,329 --> 00:07:04,770
I guess in the UFO world so I'm not sort

165
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:08,339
of you know I am interested in in UFOs

166
00:07:15,170 --> 00:07:11,610
themselves but I'm more interested in

167
00:07:18,050 --> 00:07:15,180
the people and the culture that sort of

168
00:07:20,749 --> 00:07:18,060
exists around the phenomenon what do

169
00:07:23,570 --> 00:07:20,759
what do people do when it comes to UFOs

170
00:07:26,350 --> 00:07:23,580
not necessarily what do the UFOs do so

171
00:07:29,089 --> 00:07:26,360
that's kind of my place in the UFO world

172
00:07:31,730 --> 00:07:29,099
right and I mean I couldn't agree more

173
00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:31,740
that that that has always been more

174
00:07:37,739 --> 00:07:34,449
fascinating to me than the actual

175
00:07:40,290 --> 00:07:37,749
you fo you know what people are claiming

176
00:07:42,209 --> 00:07:40,300
to see or experience it's how it

177
00:07:44,549 --> 00:07:42,219
affected them how it's perceived

178
00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:44,559
throughout both the mainstream and these

179
00:07:48,719 --> 00:07:46,089
subcultures which I would absolutely

180
00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:48,729
love to dive into as well I know at one

181
00:07:53,429 --> 00:07:50,800
point you know you called the UFO

182
00:07:56,339 --> 00:07:53,439
discourse this small field made up by a

183
00:08:00,209 --> 00:07:56,349
collection of fringe dwellers which is

184
00:08:01,799 --> 00:08:00,219
an awesome term so let's sort of if you

185
00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:01,809
don't mind could would you mind giving

186
00:08:08,010 --> 00:08:05,710
me your thoughts on what is the UFO

187
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:08,020
subculture you know you said you sort of

188
00:08:12,629 --> 00:08:10,330
examine what the punk rock subculture is

189
00:08:14,999 --> 00:08:12,639
I had a gentleman on who talked exactly

190
00:08:17,820 --> 00:08:15,009
about this what Punk rocking UFOs had in

191
00:08:20,969 --> 00:08:17,830
common so what do you think what lays

192
00:08:22,829 --> 00:08:20,979
behind this idea of a UFO subculture

193
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:22,839
what does that mean to you when you

194
00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:25,930
think about you know the UFO discourse I

195
00:08:32,399 --> 00:08:28,449
suppose in a very broad sense you sort

196
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:32,409
of have I picture it almost like a large

197
00:08:39,629 --> 00:08:36,130
sort of sphere or circle and and on sort

198
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:39,639
of the outer edges of this circle is

199
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:42,130
sort of you know the mainstream right

200
00:08:47,490 --> 00:08:44,730
and and the vast majority of sort of

201
00:08:49,439 --> 00:08:47,500
people exist - sort of on the outer edge

202
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:49,449
of the circle right everyone's kind of

203
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:51,490
in the mainstream culture of just you

204
00:08:55,590 --> 00:08:53,290
know every day right Western culture or

205
00:08:57,509 --> 00:08:55,600
whatever you know we drink Starbucks and

206
00:08:58,860 --> 00:08:57,519
we watch I don't know what do people

207
00:09:00,509 --> 00:08:58,870
watch UFC is that something people watch

208
00:09:03,389 --> 00:09:00,519
I don't know whatever people do in

209
00:09:05,610 --> 00:09:03,399
regular everyday life and then as you

210
00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:05,620
kind of get closer into the core of the

211
00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:07,529
circle you start to deal with people who

212
00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:11,680
are a little more interested in the UFO

213
00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:13,990
question and and eventually you kind of

214
00:09:17,009 --> 00:09:15,310
get to the very pinnacle right the very

215
00:09:19,610 --> 00:09:17,019
sort of focal point of the circle right

216
00:09:23,340 --> 00:09:19,620
in the core and that's kind of this

217
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:23,350
subculture of people and and they exist

218
00:09:26,819 --> 00:09:24,850
primarily on the internet right like

219
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:26,829
it's all Facebook and it's all sort of

220
00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:29,410
reddit and forums and various websites

221
00:09:36,990 --> 00:09:32,740
and the UFO subculture is this very very

222
00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:37,000
sort of digital group of people who talk

223
00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:41,110
about UFOs like non-stop online it's a

224
00:09:49,519 --> 00:09:46,110
constant constant back-and-forth debate

225
00:09:51,860 --> 00:09:49,529
sometimes like verbal abuse um you know

226
00:09:54,110 --> 00:09:51,870
but ultimately you have this sort of

227
00:09:57,769 --> 00:09:54,120
core group of people who consistently

228
00:10:00,320 --> 00:09:57,779
dwell within sort of the UFO world this

229
00:10:02,569 --> 00:10:00,330
is kind of how subcultures are built you

230
00:10:05,030 --> 00:10:02,579
know you have the mainstream and then

231
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:05,040
you know shades of the mainstream become

232
00:10:10,340 --> 00:10:07,050
interested more specifically into a

233
00:10:12,710 --> 00:10:10,350
given topic until eventually you have

234
00:10:15,380 --> 00:10:12,720
sort of the people who just only exist

235
00:10:18,639 --> 00:10:15,390
within that topic and sort of you know

236
00:10:21,470 --> 00:10:18,649
the mainstream is sort of secondary I

237
00:10:25,430 --> 00:10:21,480
think the UFO subculture kind of is very

238
00:10:28,759 --> 00:10:25,440
similar or is this really that the

239
00:10:30,650 --> 00:10:28,769
mainstream understands what UFOs are

240
00:10:31,910 --> 00:10:30,660
right you go to any person on the street

241
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:31,920
you ask them do you know what a UFO is

242
00:10:36,980 --> 00:10:34,890
is they'll be able to tell you right the

243
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:36,990
the ideology of UFOs has permeated

244
00:10:40,910 --> 00:10:38,610
society everyone knows what a flying

245
00:10:42,650 --> 00:10:40,920
saucer is everyone if you spoke to them

246
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:42,660
if you have from Roswell they would

247
00:10:45,590 --> 00:10:44,370
probably have heard of it they probably

248
00:10:46,850 --> 00:10:45,600
wouldn't know what happened necessarily

249
00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:46,860
but they would have been like oh I could

250
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:50,630
have heard that word before right so

251
00:10:55,850 --> 00:10:53,130
this subculture has kind of been able to

252
00:10:59,180 --> 00:10:55,860
sort of permeate itself outwards into

253
00:11:00,980 --> 00:10:59,190
the mainstream but really the the

254
00:11:02,889 --> 00:11:00,990
specific subculture itself like I said

255
00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:02,899
is this sort of very tight-knit

256
00:11:08,510 --> 00:11:07,110
close-knit group of people and like I

257
00:11:10,819 --> 00:11:08,520
said they sort of all exist in this

258
00:11:13,310 --> 00:11:10,829
online world and they all communicate

259
00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:13,320
with each other usually like Facebook

260
00:11:18,579 --> 00:11:15,060
you know as you know it's kind of one of

261
00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:18,589
the bigger yeah I think UFO kind of

262
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:21,540
hotspots it's for sort of discussion and

263
00:11:27,139 --> 00:11:24,170
debate there's other websites obviously

264
00:11:32,329 --> 00:11:27,149
but you know it's very strange because

265
00:11:34,939 --> 00:11:32,339
it's very difficult to get into it the

266
00:11:37,460 --> 00:11:34,949
conversation is so fluid the subculture

267
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:37,470
is insanely fluid people come and go all

268
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:38,250
the time

269
00:11:45,530 --> 00:11:43,890
of this recording anyway someone like a

270
00:11:47,150 --> 00:11:45,540
person who's well known and well

271
00:11:48,530 --> 00:11:47,160
respected was in the UFO community of

272
00:11:50,780 --> 00:11:48,540
sort publicly said I'm leaving it and

273
00:11:51,740 --> 00:11:50,790
I'm sure by the time this airs they'll

274
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:51,750
be back

275
00:11:57,079 --> 00:11:54,930
you know it's it's this kind of very

276
00:11:58,699 --> 00:11:57,089
sort of nuanced sort of and

277
00:11:59,400 --> 00:11:58,709
conversational you can kind of know who

278
00:12:01,259 --> 00:11:59,410
everyone is

279
00:12:03,389 --> 00:12:01,269
is because the culture is kind of small

280
00:12:06,269 --> 00:12:03,399
enough that you've kind of heard of

281
00:12:09,210 --> 00:12:06,279
everyone yeah it's yeah I don't know

282
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:09,220
it's at least sorted and I have to be

283
00:12:12,869 --> 00:12:10,569
specific here cousin generalizing at

284
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:12,879
least sort of for us here in in the West

285
00:12:19,650 --> 00:12:15,850
in North America um I gotta be honest I

286
00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:19,660
don't know many people in UFO world

287
00:12:25,379 --> 00:12:23,110
outside of some Western society I don't

288
00:12:28,259 --> 00:12:25,389
know very many sort of UFO researchers

289
00:12:29,970 --> 00:12:28,269
out of you know northern or southern

290
00:12:33,059 --> 00:12:29,980
Africa I don't know anyone in Asia

291
00:12:36,869 --> 00:12:33,069
really and you know like it's all kind

292
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:36,879
of European and North American and South

293
00:12:40,290 --> 00:12:38,290
American researchers that we've kind of

294
00:12:43,170 --> 00:12:40,300
all tied to but we all kind of do dwell

295
00:12:44,579 --> 00:12:43,180
on the fringe a little bit we all kind

296
00:12:47,819 --> 00:12:44,589
of function within mainstream society

297
00:12:50,460 --> 00:12:47,829
like I said we all buy Starbucks but we

298
00:12:52,889 --> 00:12:50,470
all believe in and function in this odd

299
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:52,899
way like I must check my facebook a

300
00:12:56,670 --> 00:12:55,120
dozen times a day being like I wonder

301
00:12:58,199 --> 00:12:56,680
what's happening right now in the UFO

302
00:12:59,819 --> 00:12:58,209
world and in fact my wife will criticize

303
00:13:01,860 --> 00:12:59,829
me she'll be like you're on your phone

304
00:13:03,629 --> 00:13:01,870
all the damn time looking at Facebook

305
00:13:05,129 --> 00:13:03,639
like what's going on in the UFO world

306
00:13:06,569 --> 00:13:05,139
did something blow up right and just

307
00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:06,579
like oh yeah this guy said this or this

308
00:13:12,090 --> 00:13:08,529
guy did that and you know I'm commenting

309
00:13:14,220 --> 00:13:12,100
it yeah it's madness man that's kind of

310
00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:14,230
a good jumping-off point you recently

311
00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:16,630
had an essay published in the book UFOs

312
00:13:22,259 --> 00:13:19,720
were framing the debate which I was

313
00:13:25,019 --> 00:13:22,269
honored to be you know just a few

314
00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:25,029
chapters after yours and your your

315
00:13:28,860 --> 00:13:26,740
chapters titled UFOs and modern

316
00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:28,870
capitalism dissent disenfranchisement

317
00:13:34,949 --> 00:13:32,860
and the fringe now like you said we we

318
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:34,959
all sort of live in in the mainstream

319
00:13:40,139 --> 00:13:38,050
when it comes to you know everyday

320
00:13:43,439 --> 00:13:40,149
topics going to work you know politics

321
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:43,449
this that this that um but there is this

322
00:13:50,299 --> 00:13:46,930
topic that we find ourselves thrust into

323
00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:50,309
this smaller subculture even smaller

324
00:13:56,579 --> 00:13:53,230
community where we do hash it out where

325
00:13:59,369 --> 00:13:56,589
we have almost hierarchies that seem to

326
00:14:01,769 --> 00:13:59,379
ebb and flow all the time and this

327
00:14:04,079 --> 00:14:01,779
really this is what attracted me to your

328
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:04,089
essay in this book which was edited by

329
00:14:08,850 --> 00:14:06,850
our mutual colleague Robby Graham would

330
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:08,860
you mind just giving us a little taste

331
00:14:12,689 --> 00:14:10,930
about what your chapter was about and

332
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:12,699
how it sort of connects with what we're

333
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:13,410
talking

334
00:14:18,810 --> 00:14:15,970
ultimately one thing that I think

335
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:18,820
differentiates the UFO subculture from

336
00:14:27,420 --> 00:14:24,850
other subcultures is that it the message

337
00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:27,430
the ideology that it presents in a

338
00:14:34,020 --> 00:14:31,150
general sense tries to openly counter

339
00:14:38,010 --> 00:14:34,030
and defy sort of current power systems

340
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:38,020
whether they're political or economic so

341
00:14:43,770 --> 00:14:40,690
in my essay I basically go out to try

342
00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:43,780
and sort of prove or at least argue that

343
00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:46,750
UFO discourse and the UFO debate itself

344
00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:50,080
is sort of an anti-capitalist discourse

345
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:52,060
it's an anti-capitalist subculture and I

346
00:14:57,450 --> 00:14:53,890
don't to spoil it but but ultimately I

347
00:15:00,540 --> 00:14:57,460
sort of provide kind of three subtopics

348
00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:00,550
while I lay out this is the the group of

349
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:02,260
people this is the UFO community and

350
00:15:06,090 --> 00:15:04,000
these are the sort of the things they

351
00:15:08,610 --> 00:15:06,100
believe these are the things that sort

352
00:15:11,340 --> 00:15:08,620
of make them tick and each one of these

353
00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:11,350
things is in direct opposition to sort

354
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:15,150
of a capitalist model when it comes to

355
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:17,680
sort of not only economics but but

356
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:22,330
primarily ideology UFOs and and the

357
00:15:28,950 --> 00:15:25,810
debate around UFOs commonly deal with

358
00:15:32,910 --> 00:15:28,960
sort of a few key things one it deals

359
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:32,920
with a mistrust of power a general

360
00:15:37,710 --> 00:15:35,680
mistrust of those who are in established

361
00:15:38,910 --> 00:15:37,720
positions of power organizations that

362
00:15:43,940 --> 00:15:38,920
are an established positions of power

363
00:15:46,110 --> 00:15:43,950
and sort of even even sort of

364
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:46,120
non-existent organizations potentially

365
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:48,010
better in positions of power like you

366
00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:49,570
know Illuminati or whatever right secret

367
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:51,460
sort of shadow governments but but

368
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:54,130
ultimately you have this general belief

369
00:16:00,060 --> 00:15:57,250
or this general idea that that permeates

370
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:00,070
UFO subculture and that the government

371
00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:02,170
is lying to you corporations are lying

372
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:04,630
to governments and corporations are

373
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:09,010
working hand-in-hand to to take control

374
00:16:13,410 --> 00:16:11,680
over the human race and subjugate it for

375
00:16:16,110 --> 00:16:13,420
some reason whether they're doing with

376
00:16:18,060 --> 00:16:16,120
aliens or not or whatever and you can

377
00:16:19,770 --> 00:16:18,070
kind of look in the UFO literature you

378
00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:19,780
can go online and just type in like you

379
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:22,270
know UFO conspiracy theories and just

380
00:16:27,150 --> 00:16:23,890
google that and you'll get a smattering

381
00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:27,160
of everything from secret space programs

382
00:16:30,689 --> 00:16:29,529
- you know chemtrails pumped out of

383
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:30,699
airplanes that are designed to control

384
00:16:37,290 --> 00:16:35,410
the weather - you know FEMA like slave

385
00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:37,300
camps on Mars like who the hell knows

386
00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:40,480
right but ultimately it's it's sort of

387
00:16:45,869 --> 00:16:42,670
this general idea that people in power

388
00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:45,879
and and those sort of groups within sort

389
00:16:51,329 --> 00:16:49,209
of power systems cannot be trusted the

390
00:16:54,990 --> 00:16:51,339
second sort of aspect that I really

391
00:16:57,889 --> 00:16:55,000
focus on is that the UFO topic really

392
00:17:00,869 --> 00:16:57,899
really really pushes this idea that

393
00:17:02,670 --> 00:17:00,879
because of these lies because the people

394
00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:02,680
in power are trying to subjugate sort of

395
00:17:09,539 --> 00:17:06,220
humanity clearly humanity's

396
00:17:12,140 --> 00:17:09,549
technological sort of ability is greater

397
00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:12,150
than it is currently you know like

398
00:17:19,260 --> 00:17:17,049
someone has the ability to create you

399
00:17:23,569 --> 00:17:19,270
know free energy or somebody has the

400
00:17:26,340 --> 00:17:23,579
ability to to you know create antimatter

401
00:17:27,929 --> 00:17:26,350
engines or anti-gravitational engines or

402
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:27,939
whatever which is sort of solve the

403
00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:30,970
world's problems when it comes to hunger

404
00:17:35,820 --> 00:17:32,500
and famine when it comes to you know

405
00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:35,830
water security when it comes to war and

406
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:37,030
conflict when it comes to sort of

407
00:17:42,210 --> 00:17:39,330
general economics itself the use of oil

408
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:42,220
and fossil fuels right so so there's

409
00:17:49,950 --> 00:17:45,730
this belief again that the UFOs somehow

410
00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:49,960
provide immense technological ability

411
00:17:56,970 --> 00:17:52,840
that is being hidden from humanity and

412
00:17:59,940 --> 00:17:56,980
if only we can kind of access that

413
00:18:01,799 --> 00:17:59,950
technology whether we do it through like

414
00:18:04,529 --> 00:18:01,809
a disclosure sort of movement by you

415
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:04,539
know petitioning our government members

416
00:18:10,110 --> 00:18:07,120
or whether we sort of do it by hacking

417
00:18:11,340 --> 00:18:10,120
NASA files or whatever we will

418
00:18:13,049 --> 00:18:11,350
eventually find the truth and we will

419
00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:13,059
eventually be able to create you know

420
00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:16,750
free energy or whatever which again

421
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:19,929
would sort of throw completely into

422
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:22,480
disarray the capitalist system of the

423
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:23,440
world right in the entire world

424
00:18:29,460 --> 00:18:27,130
functions upon you know some people

425
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:29,470
having a lot and a lot of people having

426
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:34,450
very little and and the the UFO undoes

427
00:18:39,659 --> 00:18:36,880
that the UFO would would say well listen

428
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:39,669
if energy is free it's everywhere it's

429
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:40,840
all around us you don't

430
00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:42,730
you two anything really except for you

431
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:45,190
know a simple machine built by aliens to

432
00:18:49,049 --> 00:18:47,200
access it you know it should sort of be

433
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:49,059
evenly dispersed and then you start

434
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:50,320
getting into sort of other narratives

435
00:18:53,490 --> 00:18:51,760
right you get into contact narrative

436
00:18:54,899 --> 00:18:53,500
where where you know aliens visit people

437
00:18:57,210 --> 00:18:54,909
and say you know you need to be a

438
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:57,220
messenger need to go out and warn people

439
00:19:00,510 --> 00:18:58,720
though global warming or nuclear weapons

440
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:00,520
or or you need to warn them about you

441
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:02,110
know free energy and tell them that it's

442
00:19:06,659 --> 00:19:04,480
out there and and all of these sort of

443
00:19:09,210 --> 00:19:06,669
other narratives that exist that again

444
00:19:12,539 --> 00:19:09,220
counter this this sort of ideological

445
00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:12,549
system that you we sort of function on

446
00:19:16,340 --> 00:19:14,260
every day which is I guess you know what

447
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:16,350
we call capitalist or modern capitalism

448
00:19:20,909 --> 00:19:19,090
so that's kind of what my essay is in a

449
00:19:22,769 --> 00:19:20,919
nutshell it's it's a little more nuanced

450
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:22,779
than than my explanation but it tries to

451
00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:25,919
get into this idea that UFOs counter

452
00:19:31,919 --> 00:19:29,320
popular culture they counter sort of the

453
00:19:34,049 --> 00:19:31,929
ideology ideological framework you and I

454
00:19:36,330 --> 00:19:34,059
live in on a daily basis and that's why

455
00:19:39,269 --> 00:19:36,340
they are a fringe topic that's why they

456
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:39,279
are taboo we don't talk about UFOs in

457
00:19:44,519 --> 00:19:41,919
polite society because they counter this

458
00:19:48,330 --> 00:19:44,529
ideology and and it's fun that way right

459
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:48,340
you know the media and sort of you know

460
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:49,990
governments will sort of purposefully

461
00:19:55,860 --> 00:19:53,919
try to make sure the UFO topic stays on

462
00:19:58,260 --> 00:19:55,870
the sidelines because again it does call

463
00:19:59,399 --> 00:19:58,270
into question their own authority it

464
00:20:02,970 --> 00:19:59,409
calls into question the authority of

465
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:02,980
government ufos and and the alleged

466
00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:06,730
aliens that pilot them don't function

467
00:20:11,070 --> 00:20:08,350
within government borders they don't

468
00:20:12,690 --> 00:20:11,080
understand you know national lines that

469
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:12,700
we've established so why should we right

470
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:15,610
it's kind of the question so would it

471
00:20:22,919 --> 00:20:19,990
undo sort of countries as a whole who

472
00:20:25,950 --> 00:20:22,929
knows but ultimately this is what the

473
00:20:29,159 --> 00:20:25,960
UFO question sort of dredges up all the

474
00:20:30,510 --> 00:20:29,169
time and I think for those within those

475
00:20:32,159 --> 00:20:30,520
paths within the power systems that

476
00:20:34,769 --> 00:20:32,169
establish sort of law and order for us

477
00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:34,779
an ideological law in order for us on a

478
00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:38,049
daily basis this is concerning you know

479
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:39,960
you don't want people thinking that

480
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:42,850
capitalism can end you don't want people

481
00:20:47,370 --> 00:20:44,890
thinking that wealth can be evenly

482
00:20:49,139 --> 00:20:47,380
distributed not in some like capital or

483
00:20:51,419 --> 00:20:49,149
communist socialist model that's silly

484
00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:51,429
but just this idea that you know energy

485
00:20:54,620 --> 00:20:53,740
is free why should we not have at all

486
00:20:56,150 --> 00:20:54,630
and why should

487
00:20:57,620 --> 00:20:56,160
not everyone have equal access to it

488
00:21:00,560 --> 00:20:57,630
like why should only some have access

489
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:00,570
versus others right you don't want this

490
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:02,910
kind of ideology to change so that's

491
00:21:06,830 --> 00:21:05,310
kind of what my essays about in a

492
00:21:09,050 --> 00:21:06,840
nutshell and I was a long nutshell I

493
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:09,060
understand no it's it's fascinating

494
00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:11,760
because I mean what you're looking at on

495
00:21:16,850 --> 00:21:13,980
sort of this this macro level we can

496
00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:16,860
even analyze on a micro level within the

497
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:19,200
subculture of ufology I think I mean you

498
00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:22,050
have those who study the topic that you

499
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:24,390
have you know one side of it who are

500
00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:26,940
looking at it from a hardcore believer

501
00:21:32,210 --> 00:21:29,790
stance another hardcore skeptic and then

502
00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:32,220
somewhere in between is the scientific

503
00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:34,590
approach and we have so many researchers

504
00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:36,870
out there or people who consider

505
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:39,630
themselves scientific screaming for more

506
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:42,690
science within UFO studies and the

507
00:21:49,010 --> 00:21:46,050
dichotomy is there that the UFO rebels

508
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:49,020
against that obviously you know every

509
00:21:55,970 --> 00:21:51,690
time we we hear about some sort of UFO

510
00:21:58,520 --> 00:21:55,980
defying every sort of conventional way

511
00:22:01,220 --> 00:21:58,530
of traveling that we know of here on

512
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:01,230
planet earth it's already like you said

513
00:22:07,310 --> 00:22:03,690
bending those rules and breaking down

514
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,320
those walls of structure of capitalising

515
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:09,840
it's it's fascinating so you even have

516
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:11,670
that dichotomy within the field of

517
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:14,850
ufology itself it's it's an awesome read

518
00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:17,130
I'm still making my way through the

519
00:22:21,950 --> 00:22:19,080
entire book but yours is by far one of

520
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:21,960
one of my favorite in that book so well

521
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:23,010
thanks very much who they're like kind

522
00:22:27,050 --> 00:22:25,440
of course there's one Amazon review that

523
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:27,060
says you should skip my essay so yeah

524
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:28,770
the fact that you're saying it's good

525
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:31,440
makes me happy hey you know we all knew

526
00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:34,290
going into this book that we were

527
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:35,460
probably going to get more hate than

528
00:22:40,340 --> 00:22:38,370
love on it but yeah it's extremely

529
00:22:43,820 --> 00:22:40,350
refreshing to see so many good reviews

530
00:22:47,150 --> 00:22:43,830
on the book and I think it's good it

531
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:47,160
really you know it challenges everything

532
00:22:52,340 --> 00:22:50,310
that we've sort of been conditioned to

533
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,350
believe about UFOs a that it has

534
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:54,000
anything to do with aliens which we'll

535
00:22:59,390 --> 00:22:57,360
definitely get into and that you know

536
00:23:01,340 --> 00:22:59,400
we're just bringing forth new questions

537
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:01,350
so we're not saying anything's right or

538
00:23:05,860 --> 00:23:03,510
wrong we're just we're here saying hey

539
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:05,870
look what if it's this

540
00:23:10,570 --> 00:23:08,510
spend you know it's kind of like Mike

541
00:23:11,250 --> 00:23:10,580
Myers and Sno you know talk amongst

542
00:23:14,350 --> 00:23:11,260
yourselves

543
00:23:17,049 --> 00:23:14,360
well let's sort of let's dive into that

544
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:17,059
idea about the occupants of these craft

545
00:23:22,690 --> 00:23:20,090
you wrote a wonderful article on Terra

546
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:22,700
obscura MJ about shaking the et

547
00:23:29,549 --> 00:23:26,450
hypothesis now this was a big part of

548
00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:29,559
UFOs reframing the debate as well

549
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:31,460
probably one of the biggest running

550
00:23:36,940 --> 00:23:33,850
themes throughout the entire book now

551
00:23:39,789 --> 00:23:36,950
can you give us a little just a little

552
00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:39,799
bit about why you wrote this essay what

553
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:42,080
compelled you to write this essay about

554
00:23:46,419 --> 00:23:44,090
shaking the ET hypothesis

555
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:46,429
what is the ET hypothesis for those who

556
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:48,770
may not know for the longest time like

557
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:53,090
seventy years there's been this I'm

558
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,130
going to call it a cultural push or an

559
00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:57,440
ideological push that's existed within

560
00:24:06,070 --> 00:23:59,600
sort of the UFO subcultures UFO

561
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:06,080
community that UFOs are made of you know

562
00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:07,970
metal or something you know like they're

563
00:24:11,139 --> 00:24:09,440
machines that's like like you and I

564
00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:11,149
connect their technology and their

565
00:24:17,049 --> 00:24:15,020
piloted by beings like you and I right

566
00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:17,059
they're made of meat or if they're not

567
00:24:20,740 --> 00:24:18,559
made of meat they're you know they're

568
00:24:21,490 --> 00:24:20,750
they're sort of made of silicone or

569
00:24:22,899 --> 00:24:21,500
they're made they're let you know

570
00:24:24,279 --> 00:24:22,909
they're maybe they're they're automated

571
00:24:26,769 --> 00:24:24,289
or something but they're intelligently

572
00:24:29,470 --> 00:24:26,779
controlled in a way by some sort of

573
00:24:32,049 --> 00:24:29,480
species that's just more advanced than

574
00:24:33,730 --> 00:24:32,059
you and I so so basically the claim is

575
00:24:39,010 --> 00:24:33,740
and in sort of the philosophical claim

576
00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:39,020
is that you know extraterrestrials are

577
00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:43,070
essentially they have the ability to to

578
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:45,950
create technology they have free will

579
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:48,529
they have agency like you and I have and

580
00:24:52,389 --> 00:24:51,110
they have an agenda right they they hop

581
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:52,399
in their little ships and they are

582
00:24:58,539 --> 00:24:55,130
purposefully going around doing stuff

583
00:25:01,210 --> 00:24:58,549
for some reason and ultimately this is a

584
00:25:03,789 --> 00:25:01,220
bold claim this is a bold claim for a

585
00:25:05,830 --> 00:25:03,799
lot of reasons the main one being that

586
00:25:10,269 --> 00:25:05,840
you know there's no evidence to support

587
00:25:15,220 --> 00:25:10,279
it we can maybe argue that UFOs have

588
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:15,230
shown signs of intelligent control but

589
00:25:18,340 --> 00:25:16,970
does that necessarily mean they're being

590
00:25:19,389 --> 00:25:18,350
piloted by anything does that

591
00:25:21,369 --> 00:25:19,399
necessarily mean that they're at

592
00:25:23,889 --> 00:25:21,379
physically there does that mean anything

593
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:23,899
no somebody saw something that looked

594
00:25:29,499 --> 00:25:26,960
like it was being intelligent but it

595
00:25:31,060 --> 00:25:29,509
looked intelligent to a human again

596
00:25:32,469 --> 00:25:31,070
we're making assumptions based you know

597
00:25:33,009 --> 00:25:32,479
are they then intelligent like I don't

598
00:25:34,659 --> 00:25:33,019
don't matter

599
00:25:38,169 --> 00:25:34,669
the point is sorry I'm philosophically

600
00:25:39,909 --> 00:25:38,179
going from wrong the point is UFOs have

601
00:25:42,549 --> 00:25:39,919
sort of always been considered you know

602
00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:42,559
inside the spaceship is a little or

603
00:25:47,739 --> 00:25:46,190
groups of people and they fly around you

604
00:25:49,029 --> 00:25:47,749
know like I said the evidence isn't

605
00:25:50,889 --> 00:25:49,039
necessarily there to support this

606
00:25:54,190 --> 00:25:50,899
especially when you look at the broad

607
00:25:56,529 --> 00:25:54,200
field of sort of all UFO sighting

608
00:26:00,849 --> 00:25:56,539
reports or especially contact abduction

609
00:26:03,969 --> 00:26:00,859
reports or close encounter reports you

610
00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:03,979
get a lot of strange strange moments

611
00:26:09,009 --> 00:26:06,830
that kind of defy these ideas there are

612
00:26:10,779 --> 00:26:09,019
literally UFO reports where a person

613
00:26:13,329 --> 00:26:10,789
will see something in the yard sort of

614
00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:13,339
this bright glowing object they walk out

615
00:26:18,249 --> 00:26:15,679
in the yard and and like a door opens

616
00:26:20,259 --> 00:26:18,259
and out walks like a six-foot bunny

617
00:26:22,239 --> 00:26:20,269
rabbit right and the bunny rabbit like

618
00:26:23,649 --> 00:26:22,249
looks at them and they look at the bunny

619
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:23,659
rabbit and then the bunny rabbit turns

620
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:25,369
around walks back into the into the or

621
00:26:31,749 --> 00:26:27,440
glowing thing and takes off it's like

622
00:26:33,249 --> 00:26:31,759
okay so it clearly you know unless you

623
00:26:35,049 --> 00:26:33,259
never know maybe bunny rabbits evolve

624
00:26:37,419 --> 00:26:35,059
somewhere else but but ultimately this

625
00:26:39,129 --> 00:26:37,429
is sort of this odd UFO report that kind

626
00:26:40,419 --> 00:26:39,139
of shows up once a while and you know

627
00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:40,429
you can kind of replace bunny rabbit

628
00:26:46,060 --> 00:26:44,809
with various animals or things that you

629
00:26:48,489 --> 00:26:46,070
know doesn't necessarily follow this

630
00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:48,499
model of sort of extraterrestrial

631
00:26:55,810 --> 00:26:51,529
hypothesis you know you also get these

632
00:26:58,029 --> 00:26:55,820
huge variations in object shape craft

633
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:58,039
shape you know whether it's a saucer or

634
00:27:03,639 --> 00:27:00,559
a triangle or you know like a crescent

635
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:03,649
shape or a delta wing or whatever you

636
00:27:06,149 --> 00:27:05,330
get you know variations in what they

637
00:27:11,169 --> 00:27:06,159
look like

638
00:27:13,769 --> 00:27:11,179
you get variations in how they act you

639
00:27:17,349 --> 00:27:13,779
know people have have sighting reports

640
00:27:19,659 --> 00:27:17,359
where they are hyper stressed and

641
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:19,669
they're there they're freaking out about

642
00:27:22,239 --> 00:27:20,809
what they're seeing and then you have

643
00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:22,249
others where they felt perfectly at

644
00:27:25,659 --> 00:27:24,080
peace and peace rather and almost like

645
00:27:27,070 --> 00:27:25,669
they're having like a divine moment with

646
00:27:29,649 --> 00:27:27,080
you know like they're touching the face

647
00:27:32,019 --> 00:27:29,659
of God and again you know if this is

648
00:27:35,139 --> 00:27:32,029
just an extraterrestrial species

649
00:27:38,229 --> 00:27:35,149
why is there so much variation right why

650
00:27:40,869 --> 00:27:38,239
I think why in the 1950s did they fly

651
00:27:43,239 --> 00:27:40,879
flying saucers and why in the 1990s did

652
00:27:45,129 --> 00:27:43,249
they fly black triangles did they have a

653
00:27:46,899 --> 00:27:45,139
technological shift did they have a

654
00:27:49,479 --> 00:27:46,909
stylistic shift that seems highly

655
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:49,489
unlikely you never know though again

656
00:27:53,859 --> 00:27:52,129
that speculation but you know like it

657
00:27:56,109 --> 00:27:53,869
doesn't necessarily kind of make sense

658
00:27:58,089 --> 00:27:56,119
so so you know that what naturally

659
00:27:59,889 --> 00:27:58,099
occurs right is people within the UFO

660
00:28:01,539 --> 00:27:59,899
community kind of start like making [\h__\h]

661
00:28:03,909 --> 00:28:01,549
up right the tanks were on the show

662
00:28:05,529 --> 00:28:03,919
absolutely they start making [\h__\h] up and

663
00:28:07,329 --> 00:28:05,539
they start saying stuff like you know

664
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:07,339
well there's different races or there's

665
00:28:10,690 --> 00:28:08,809
there and and some of them are peaceful

666
00:28:11,739 --> 00:28:10,700
and some of our are are malevolent and

667
00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:11,749
you know what you get this whole

668
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:13,849
smattering of different sort of

669
00:28:20,289 --> 00:28:18,529
ideological like [\h__\h] that tries to

670
00:28:21,820 --> 00:28:20,299
suggest there's these like dozens and

671
00:28:24,339 --> 00:28:21,830
dozens of alien races out there and

672
00:28:25,869 --> 00:28:24,349
they're all kind of coexisting for some

673
00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:25,879
reason and humanity is stuck in this

674
00:28:30,099 --> 00:28:28,070
kind of battleground situation between

675
00:28:33,459 --> 00:28:30,109
the greys and the Nordics and the

676
00:28:35,139 --> 00:28:33,469
reptilians and the blue avians and the

677
00:28:38,739 --> 00:28:35,149
the whites or whatever they're called

678
00:28:40,749 --> 00:28:38,749
like it's ridiculous right and and this

679
00:28:42,489 --> 00:28:40,759
is kind of all trying to defend the ETH

680
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:42,499
right the extra-terrestrial hypothesis

681
00:28:49,509 --> 00:28:46,070
doesn't stand on its own so what occurs

682
00:28:51,459 --> 00:28:49,519
is this ramping up of ideology and and

683
00:28:53,049 --> 00:28:51,469
you just kind of throw more stuff into

684
00:28:55,450 --> 00:28:53,059
it to kind of say to try to explain away

685
00:28:57,399 --> 00:28:55,460
these problems that tend to show up I

686
00:28:59,499 --> 00:28:57,409
think what the UFOs are trimming the

687
00:29:01,839 --> 00:28:59,509
debate the book and a lot of the writers

688
00:29:03,339 --> 00:29:01,849
in it they go about and they actually

689
00:29:05,259 --> 00:29:03,349
look at the evidence and they actually

690
00:29:07,299 --> 00:29:05,269
look at the witness reports and they go

691
00:29:10,149 --> 00:29:07,309
back to the witnesses which is kind of

692
00:29:12,129 --> 00:29:10,159
all we really have right in the UFO

693
00:29:14,829 --> 00:29:12,139
world all you have is the testimony of

694
00:29:16,709 --> 00:29:14,839
witnesses really fundamentally you might

695
00:29:20,139 --> 00:29:16,719
have a few pieces of physical evidence

696
00:29:22,029 --> 00:29:20,149
but it's limited and at most times Dubya

697
00:29:23,619 --> 00:29:22,039
all all you kind of fundamentally have

698
00:29:25,389 --> 00:29:23,629
the bread butter is is the witness

699
00:29:26,709 --> 00:29:25,399
report and and if you actually look at

700
00:29:29,829 --> 00:29:26,719
them and you look at all of them and you

701
00:29:32,109 --> 00:29:29,839
take them kind of all at the same level

702
00:29:33,969 --> 00:29:32,119
of sort of quality you kind of notice

703
00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:33,979
that there's these insane variations

704
00:29:39,070 --> 00:29:36,289
which which suggest that maybe we're not

705
00:29:41,019 --> 00:29:39,080
dealing with a species that's made of

706
00:29:43,060 --> 00:29:41,029
meat like you and I flying in metal

707
00:29:44,229 --> 00:29:43,070
spaceships around the galaxy but rather

708
00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:44,239
we're dealing with something else

709
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:45,860
something intelligent

710
00:29:51,730 --> 00:29:48,290
but something else and I think that this

711
00:29:56,590 --> 00:29:51,740
is potentially kind of where I think a

712
00:29:58,510 --> 00:29:56,600
lot of younger sort of UFO sort of

713
00:30:01,380 --> 00:29:58,520
researchers are going I think they're

714
00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:01,390
kind of improving upon the errors of

715
00:30:08,590 --> 00:30:05,030
their parents innocent and they're kind

716
00:30:11,740 --> 00:30:08,600
of looking at this phenomenon more from

717
00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:11,750
the perspective of the witness and less

718
00:30:15,070 --> 00:30:13,520
from the perspective of their own

719
00:30:17,049 --> 00:30:15,080
personal bias and their own personal

720
00:30:19,060 --> 00:30:17,059
ideological background and their own

721
00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:19,070
sort of personal sociological and

722
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:20,809
cultural baggage that they bring to the

723
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:24,770
UFO table so I'll stop there before I

724
00:30:28,090 --> 00:30:26,210
say any more because I know right now

725
00:30:29,950 --> 00:30:28,100
I'm sure there's a few sort of older

726
00:30:31,450 --> 00:30:29,960
guard ufologists hits slamming their

727
00:30:34,780 --> 00:30:31,460
hands on tables right now yelling and

728
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:34,790
cursing my name Haven well I mean what

729
00:30:40,330 --> 00:30:37,090
you're bringing up is this whole idea of

730
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:40,340
this term EXO philosophy in a sense you

731
00:30:46,030 --> 00:30:44,000
know this idea that as the younger

732
00:30:48,909 --> 00:30:46,040
generation is coming in and looking at

733
00:30:50,650 --> 00:30:48,919
this topic we're realizing hey you

734
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:50,660
haven't got a metal ship for us to look

735
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:52,910
at you don't have a body for us to look

736
00:30:59,789 --> 00:30:55,010
at supposedly that there might be some

737
00:31:02,830 --> 00:30:59,799
in Peru somewhere and going on

738
00:31:06,940 --> 00:31:02,840
but yeah this idea that we can look at

739
00:31:09,580 --> 00:31:06,950
this entire topic from a very human

740
00:31:11,770 --> 00:31:09,590
angle and like he said all we really

741
00:31:15,789 --> 00:31:11,780
have to rely on is witness testimony and

742
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:15,799
that is extremely faulty at times we we

743
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:18,080
know this it's our biggest frustration

744
00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:21,679
within this field and it's hard man it's

745
00:31:29,919 --> 00:31:26,950
hard to look at this topic and try to

746
00:31:31,330 --> 00:31:29,929
bring a credible approach to the

747
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:31,340
mainstream about it

748
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:33,890
when all we have is millions of people

749
00:31:38,289 --> 00:31:35,840
saying millions of different races are

750
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:38,299
visiting this planet and interacting

751
00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:41,750
with us so you know what do we do what

752
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:42,799
do we do at that point

753
00:31:49,870 --> 00:31:46,720
I think UFO is reframing the debate is

754
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:49,880
one of the first steps in a very long

755
00:31:55,570 --> 00:31:53,090
journey to come but I think it is paving

756
00:31:58,390 --> 00:31:55,580
the way for people to be like okay it's

757
00:31:59,620 --> 00:31:58,400
alright to think differently than what

758
00:32:03,460 --> 00:31:59,630
we've been thinking for the past

759
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:03,470
50 60 70 years of UFO studies it's okay

760
00:32:08,590 --> 00:32:05,450
we're going to get hate for it but you

761
00:32:10,510 --> 00:32:08,600
know who hasn't gotten hate when they're

762
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:10,520
starting to bring new ideas forward

763
00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:11,840
people hate change

764
00:32:16,420 --> 00:32:14,240
they feel comfortable and I think this

765
00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:16,430
is a topic that you have to be extremely

766
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:18,230
uncomfortable with if you're going to

767
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:20,570
get anywhere for sure and you know like

768
00:32:26,350 --> 00:32:23,810
the idea that that the UFO phenomenon is

769
00:32:28,390 --> 00:32:26,360
caused by something potentially more I

770
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:28,400
don't know that - let's use eternal

771
00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:29,810
mystical you know not necessarily

772
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:31,910
material but more mystical you know it's

773
00:32:35,770 --> 00:32:33,410
an old idea it's been around for sort of

774
00:32:37,650 --> 00:32:35,780
as long as the ETH has been but for some

775
00:32:40,930 --> 00:32:37,660
reason right like for some reason

776
00:32:43,630 --> 00:32:40,940
culturally the ETH is really the one

777
00:32:45,310 --> 00:32:43,640
that's kind of taken hold especially in

778
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:45,320
the mainstream when you when you really

779
00:32:49,330 --> 00:32:47,810
think about all of the movies out there

780
00:32:52,510 --> 00:32:49,340
about aliens all the TV shows what

781
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:52,520
aliens and especially kind of like for

782
00:32:56,650 --> 00:32:54,170
the UFO community kind of the bread and

783
00:32:59,530 --> 00:32:56,660
butter shows that those sort of reality

784
00:33:01,480 --> 00:32:59,540
sort of TV documentary shows and all

785
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:01,490
those right like ancient aliens or

786
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:04,850
hangar one or UFO hunters or chasing

787
00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:07,370
UFOs or whatever like those shows that

788
00:33:11,340 --> 00:33:09,470
sort of show up you know at 9 p.m. on

789
00:33:15,790 --> 00:33:11,350
History Channel on like a Wednesday

790
00:33:17,890 --> 00:33:15,800
those shows are continuously pushing the

791
00:33:20,530 --> 00:33:17,900
extraterrestrial phenomenon consistently

792
00:33:23,170 --> 00:33:20,540
no one for some reason especially you

793
00:33:25,750 --> 00:33:23,180
sort of within programming and media

794
00:33:27,850 --> 00:33:25,760
that accesses mainstream content talks

795
00:33:31,330 --> 00:33:27,860
about the more mystical aspects of the

796
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:31,340
UFO question or the more sort of weird

797
00:33:35,290 --> 00:33:33,740
high strangeness aspect it's always

798
00:33:38,170 --> 00:33:35,300
about aliens it's always about them

799
00:33:40,330 --> 00:33:38,180
visiting us for some reason in their

800
00:33:43,450 --> 00:33:40,340
ships and and it's weird to think like

801
00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:43,460
why is that the message that made it why

802
00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:46,400
why does the mainstream whenever it

803
00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:49,550
talks about UFOs always refer sort of

804
00:33:54,820 --> 00:33:51,830
extraterrestrials and aliens why is that

805
00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:54,830
the ideology that has sort of pushed its

806
00:33:59,670 --> 00:33:56,960
way out of the subculture into the

807
00:34:01,570 --> 00:33:59,680
mainstream and and why is the the other

808
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:01,580
ideology that sort of more mystical

809
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:03,440
universal consciousness whatever you

810
00:34:10,330 --> 00:34:07,190
want to call it non ETH why has that

811
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:10,340
sort of been restricted to inside the

812
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:12,910
subculture and has never kind of had

813
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:15,130
an opportunity to kind of really air

814
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:18,970
itself out within popular culture

815
00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:21,730
Eph has had 70 years to do it this

816
00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:24,100
mystical sort of argument you know once

817
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:25,720
in a while will pop up but very quickly

818
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:28,240
disappears again and you never really

819
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:29,650
hear about it and that's the same thing

820
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:32,290
you go outside to the mainstream and you

821
00:34:35,550 --> 00:34:33,760
talk to people about Roswell and the

822
00:34:36,990 --> 00:34:35,560
automatic it's aliens right from another

823
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:37,000
planet from alien ship crash to another

824
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:38,650
planet right that's kind what they say

825
00:34:42,810 --> 00:34:40,510
because that's what they've kind of been

826
00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:42,820
told that it's what we believe in in a

827
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:43,990
sense right this is what the UFO

828
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:45,610
subculture believes in it believes in

829
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:47,170
aliens and I thought that's only true

830
00:34:50,910 --> 00:34:49,090
right we don't necessarily all believe

831
00:34:52,770 --> 00:34:50,920
in aliens I personally don't believe in

832
00:34:54,450 --> 00:34:52,780
aliens in a sense it's like you know

833
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:54,460
aliens visiting earth I'm sure they're

834
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:56,290
out there in the universe which is huge

835
00:34:59,790 --> 00:34:57,730
but I'm not really sure if they're

836
00:35:01,650 --> 00:34:59,800
coming here you know I don't have a sort

837
00:35:03,870 --> 00:35:01,660
of a belief system that aliens are

838
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:03,880
present on earth do I think something

839
00:35:07,650 --> 00:35:05,530
strange is going on of course something

840
00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:07,660
strange is going on do I know what it is

841
00:35:13,260 --> 00:35:10,870
no is it aliens I don't think so I want

842
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:13,270
it to be because that would be cool but

843
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:14,770
if I don't know yeah that's a good point

844
00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:17,440
and I remember hearing you say once MJ

845
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:20,440
that you know this the idea of the alien

846
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:23,170
this is a potential game-changer for

847
00:35:27,390 --> 00:35:25,210
Humanity no matter what when you look at

848
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:27,400
other topics like the paranormal a ghost

849
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:30,490
or trance with a Bigfoot you know I've

850
00:35:35,220 --> 00:35:33,310
heard you say like these these pale and

851
00:35:38,610 --> 00:35:35,230
compares in comparison to the idea that

852
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:38,620
in alien may exist as well because this

853
00:35:43,530 --> 00:35:41,200
would affect us directly

854
00:35:46,370 --> 00:35:43,540
knowing that we are not the only you

855
00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:46,380
know sentient being within the universe

856
00:35:51,690 --> 00:35:49,630
let alone the world you know it's

857
00:35:54,330 --> 00:35:51,700
fascinating and this idea that yes you

858
00:35:58,650 --> 00:35:54,340
can believe in UFOs and not believe in

859
00:36:00,560 --> 00:35:58,660
aliens that is very possible and it it's

860
00:36:03,660 --> 00:36:00,570
just it's so much to take in all at once

861
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:03,670
yeah you know I mean the pleasure and

862
00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:05,530
the joy of sort of being in philosophy

863
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:07,540
and critical theory is that I can kind

864
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:09,130
of compartmentalize my brain right so I

865
00:36:13,710 --> 00:36:10,720
can say one thing and kind of believe

866
00:36:15,570 --> 00:36:13,720
something else because you know that's

867
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:15,580
what it is yeah wonderful luxury to have

868
00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:17,530
it's beautiful yeah it's a beautiful

869
00:36:22,290 --> 00:36:20,200
sort of place to be you know no one's

870
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:22,300
worried about ghosts and Bigfoot

871
00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:24,970
invading the planet you know I mean like

872
00:36:28,930 --> 00:36:26,420
it's not a concern and

873
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:28,940
part of the message I'm part of the sort

874
00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:30,710
of the construct that is you know

875
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:34,609
Bigfoot know okay interesting you know

876
00:36:39,940 --> 00:36:37,970
it's a it's a large beast thing that

877
00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:39,950
roams around sure maybe it's aliens like

878
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:41,390
you know I mean like and that's it and I

879
00:36:43,569 --> 00:36:42,650
think that's the best my favorite thing

880
00:36:45,069 --> 00:36:43,579
right is people are kind of saying

881
00:36:46,450 --> 00:36:45,079
Bigfoot's paranormal right like Bigfoot

882
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:46,460
is a ghost or Bigfoot's an alien see

883
00:36:50,980 --> 00:36:49,910
which I love I love that but you know no

884
00:36:54,460 --> 00:36:50,990
one's worried about a whole bunch of

885
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:54,470
hairy monkeys you know suddenly picking

886
00:36:57,309 --> 00:36:55,970
up guns and shooting at us and invading

887
00:36:58,690 --> 00:36:57,319
the planet and then burying the Statue

888
00:37:01,690 --> 00:36:58,700
of Liberty and sand you know at the end

889
00:37:03,250 --> 00:37:01,700
and Charlton Heston shows up no one's

890
00:37:04,569 --> 00:37:03,260
really sort of fundamentally concerned

891
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:04,579
about this no one's concerned about kind

892
00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:08,000
of ghosts amassing massive technology

893
00:37:12,099 --> 00:37:10,220
and using it against us in a sort of an

894
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:12,109
effectual way that would sort of

895
00:37:17,260 --> 00:37:15,770
subjugate humanity aliens do present

896
00:37:18,970 --> 00:37:17,270
this idea right and I mean a lot of

897
00:37:20,829 --> 00:37:18,980
horror movies that come out right kind

898
00:37:22,809 --> 00:37:20,839
of folk focus on this concept right the

899
00:37:24,609 --> 00:37:22,819
aliens are here to invade they're there

900
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:24,619
they're just sort of they're better than

901
00:37:29,010 --> 00:37:27,170
us and and the law of nature is that you

902
00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:29,020
know the strong dominate the weak

903
00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:32,480
Humanity is very comfortable on earth as

904
00:37:37,390 --> 00:37:34,400
the strongest and the dominant species

905
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:37,400
nothing else can stand in our way we can

906
00:37:40,990 --> 00:37:39,200
literally move mountains if we want

907
00:37:43,870 --> 00:37:41,000
being presented with another

908
00:37:45,970 --> 00:37:43,880
intelligence that is able to do more

909
00:37:47,799 --> 00:37:45,980
than move mountains that is able to sort

910
00:37:50,170 --> 00:37:47,809
of subjugate us this is yeah

911
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:50,180
philosophically frightening and in fact

912
00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:51,290
philosophers have talked about this for

913
00:37:54,730 --> 00:37:53,540
a long time thousands of years in fact

914
00:37:56,980 --> 00:37:54,740
philosophers kind of said you know what

915
00:37:59,020 --> 00:37:56,990
if there's life elsewhere created by a

916
00:38:00,220 --> 00:37:59,030
god just like you and I and what if

917
00:38:02,049 --> 00:38:00,230
they're better than us what if they're

918
00:38:04,690 --> 00:38:02,059
there they're more intelligent what if

919
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:04,700
they're sort of better than us morally

920
00:38:08,589 --> 00:38:06,890
or ethically they don't behave like we

921
00:38:10,270 --> 00:38:08,599
behave like a bunch of sort of you know

922
00:38:11,799 --> 00:38:10,280
animals trying to nuke each other half

923
00:38:13,690 --> 00:38:11,809
the time you know what if they're sort

924
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:13,700
of living in peace and and and they view

925
00:38:17,799 --> 00:38:15,680
us as a threat you know this is sort of

926
00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:17,809
old philosophy but it does raise a lot

927
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,609
of fears I think amongst people I think

928
00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:21,440
Humanity is kind of anxious about the

929
00:38:26,710 --> 00:38:23,470
UFO question for sure in that sense

930
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:26,720
because it presents to us a possibility

931
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:29,690
that you and I may not be the highest

932
00:38:32,770 --> 00:38:31,490
thing on the food chain and you know

933
00:38:34,930 --> 00:38:32,780
there's nothing more frightening I think

934
00:38:36,819 --> 00:38:34,940
then getting eat you know well something

935
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:36,829
I also want to touch on the idea of

936
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:39,440
skeptics within UFO disc

937
00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:40,970
you have another article on your site

938
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:43,640
called god save the debunker hi I love

939
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:45,770
your titles by the way thank you very

940
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:47,810
much yes very enticing wait it's a

941
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:49,280
really good way to draw people in and

942
00:38:57,220 --> 00:38:52,490
then to actually god forbid think so

943
00:38:59,770 --> 00:38:57,230
this idea of the place for debunking or

944
00:39:02,650 --> 00:38:59,780
the place for skepticism within the UFO

945
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:02,660
discourse um what are your personal

946
00:39:07,450 --> 00:39:05,030
thoughts on the value of that within

947
00:39:09,730 --> 00:39:07,460
this you know we can scream from the

948
00:39:12,930 --> 00:39:09,740
rooftops that UFOs are quote-unquote

949
00:39:15,220 --> 00:39:12,940
real or that this is a phenomenon worth

950
00:39:17,290 --> 00:39:15,230
exploring whether scientifically

951
00:39:19,420 --> 00:39:17,300
philosophically theologically whatever

952
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:19,430
but what is the place of the skeptic and

953
00:39:24,670 --> 00:39:22,610
the debunker and all this it's it's it's

954
00:39:27,580 --> 00:39:24,680
interesting to think people who write

955
00:39:29,970 --> 00:39:27,590
off the belief in UFOs right people who

956
00:39:33,220 --> 00:39:29,980
say if there's nothing to it generally

957
00:39:35,170 --> 00:39:33,230
leave it at that someone will say I saw

958
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:35,180
this UFO it was like you know okay you

959
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:36,800
know here you go here's here's a great

960
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:38,810
example use it you sit down with you

961
00:39:43,570 --> 00:39:40,850
know your your soon-to-be father-in-law

962
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:43,580
or something and you know you know you

963
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:45,050
just you know you're having a

964
00:39:48,070 --> 00:39:46,850
conversation at the dinner and at the

965
00:39:49,359 --> 00:39:48,080
dinner table you know the first time you

966
00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:49,369
bring up you know when I was a kid I saw

967
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:51,710
a UFO and your father-in-law being you

968
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:54,530
know a rational person is like you know

969
00:39:58,570 --> 00:39:56,570
that's silly and then the conversation

970
00:40:00,070 --> 00:39:58,580
moves on and it's never spoken of again

971
00:40:02,859 --> 00:40:00,080
you know I mean yeah because he just

972
00:40:05,109 --> 00:40:02,869
doesn't give a crap and and you know

973
00:40:06,220 --> 00:40:05,119
you're at your wedding and five years

974
00:40:07,570 --> 00:40:06,230
later ten years later you know it's

975
00:40:09,220 --> 00:40:07,580
never brought up because you know your

976
00:40:11,740 --> 00:40:09,230
father-in-law just doesn't care because

977
00:40:15,820 --> 00:40:11,750
the UFOs just aren't something he buys

978
00:40:18,340 --> 00:40:15,830
into that is like the worst thing for

979
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:18,350
ufology right the only thing that really

980
00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:20,570
gives you follows you credit within the

981
00:40:26,070 --> 00:40:23,119
mainstream is that people spend the time

982
00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:26,080
debunking it or attempting to debunk it

983
00:40:30,190 --> 00:40:28,430
because what it then does is it then

984
00:40:32,670 --> 00:40:30,200
proves that it's something worth talking

985
00:40:35,859 --> 00:40:32,680
about if somebody is going to actively

986
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:35,869
engage with you and debate with you in a

987
00:40:40,210 --> 00:40:38,090
about something and say you're wrong

988
00:40:41,470 --> 00:40:40,220
because and here's my proof and then you

989
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:41,480
are able to then say well here's why

990
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:43,970
you're wrong and here's my proof they

991
00:40:49,090 --> 00:40:46,730
are only reinforcing the validity and

992
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:49,100
the importance of the topic I coach

993
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:51,770
debate um I'm a teacher I coach debate

994
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:52,890
as a side

995
00:40:56,839 --> 00:40:55,170
we only debate stuff that people care

996
00:41:00,739 --> 00:40:56,849
about stuff that no one cares about

997
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:00,749
isn't debated so when Carl Sagan or when

998
00:41:07,940 --> 00:41:03,839
Neil deGrasse Tyson or when Stephen

999
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:07,950
Hawking or when filled class or Robert

1000
00:41:14,660 --> 00:41:11,970
Schaeffer god bless em steps sort of out

1001
00:41:18,049 --> 00:41:14,670
or Bill Nye the Science Guy steps out

1002
00:41:19,309 --> 00:41:18,059
and says UFOs are not a thing aliens are

1003
00:41:22,509 --> 00:41:19,319
not a thing or at least they're not a

1004
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:22,519
thing on earth here's why they are

1005
00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:25,410
automatically establishing the

1006
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:27,089
importance of the topic right they're

1007
00:41:31,849 --> 00:41:28,650
basically saying I'm willing to debate

1008
00:41:34,579 --> 00:41:31,859
with you on this right and argue against

1009
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:34,589
you they they're literally if they want

1010
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:36,930
you followed you to die just don't talk

1011
00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:39,690
about it right it's going to like ignore

1012
00:41:44,420 --> 00:41:41,910
it and it'll go it'll go away exactly

1013
00:41:46,460 --> 00:41:44,430
but debunking the act of being a skeptic

1014
00:41:47,749 --> 00:41:46,470
but listen I'm sorry I should use the

1015
00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:47,759
term scary actually being a debunker the

1016
00:41:52,910 --> 00:41:50,460
act of engaging the UFO topic and saying

1017
00:41:55,370 --> 00:41:52,920
you are wrong because you are throwing

1018
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:55,380
more gasoline on that fire and what it's

1019
00:41:59,630 --> 00:41:57,599
doing is its allowing the UFO debate to

1020
00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,640
continue it's allowing the UFO discourse

1021
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:02,640
to thrive you need the skeptics like

1022
00:42:06,319 --> 00:42:04,529
hope Robert Schaeffer listens to this

1023
00:42:09,769 --> 00:42:06,329
you need the Robert Schafer's on

1024
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:09,779
Facebook calling people out his actions

1025
00:42:13,819 --> 00:42:12,450
are literally reinforcing the importance

1026
00:42:16,190 --> 00:42:13,829
of what you're talking about

1027
00:42:18,589 --> 00:42:16,200
I hope he doesn't cry excited for the

1028
00:42:20,420 --> 00:42:18,599
fate I'm gonna follow this that is a

1029
00:42:23,359 --> 00:42:20,430
good point I have to add there's a

1030
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:23,369
gentleman who and again like we've all

1031
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,440
been there these flame wars on social

1032
00:42:28,849 --> 00:42:27,359
networks and whatnot you know there's a

1033
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:28,859
gentleman who every time I post

1034
00:42:34,190 --> 00:42:31,710
something he challenges it and he'll go

1035
00:42:35,930 --> 00:42:34,200
off on me about it we'll defend one

1036
00:42:37,759 --> 00:42:35,940
another and then three days later we'll

1037
00:42:40,460 --> 00:42:37,769
reconnect it I'm sorry I'm sorry you

1038
00:42:43,069 --> 00:42:40,470
know like let's talk about this you know

1039
00:42:45,319 --> 00:42:43,079
in that that's what keeps me going is

1040
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:45,329
having someone to constantly challenge

1041
00:42:49,279 --> 00:42:47,609
you to you know set you straight when

1042
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:49,289
you're starting to veer and I think

1043
00:42:54,859 --> 00:42:50,880
that's very important and people like

1044
00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:54,869
Shafer as blunt as they might be they're

1045
00:43:00,049 --> 00:42:57,599
healthy for this entire topic oh it

1046
00:43:03,470 --> 00:43:00,059
becomes a big echo chamber and it also

1047
00:43:06,259 --> 00:43:03,480
becomes like the debates essential right

1048
00:43:06,740 --> 00:43:06,269
you need the conversation you need the

1049
00:43:09,050 --> 00:43:06,750
back and

1050
00:43:11,330 --> 00:43:09,060
forth because like I said if no one's

1051
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:11,340
willing to talk to you about it it just

1052
00:43:15,290 --> 00:43:12,930
kind of goes away right it just kind of

1053
00:43:16,610 --> 00:43:15,300
dies a slow death and the fire burns out

1054
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:16,620
and then all of a sudden like you know

1055
00:43:21,620 --> 00:43:19,890
nobody cares and and and worse off no

1056
00:43:25,070 --> 00:43:21,630
one's sort of in the mainstream cares

1057
00:43:26,750 --> 00:43:25,080
anymore this is kind of a huge aspect I

1058
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:26,760
think for UFO discourse is it's

1059
00:43:31,310 --> 00:43:29,010
constantly trying to move its way into

1060
00:43:33,230 --> 00:43:31,320
the mainstream is trying to unfriend

1061
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:33,240
itself it's trying to untie boo itself

1062
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:36,810
and and you know every time kind of Neil

1063
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:38,460
deGrasse Tyson steps up and talks about

1064
00:43:43,610 --> 00:43:40,410
it or Bill Nye really is a YouTube video

1065
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:43,620
saying UFOs are [\h__\h] it pushes UFOs

1066
00:43:48,620 --> 00:43:46,770
kind of a little more into the

1067
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,630
mainstream because now you have someone

1068
00:43:53,660 --> 00:43:50,400
like build hot Bill Nye talking about it

1069
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:53,670
right and then it causes kind of further

1070
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:55,170
research and you know the UFO community

1071
00:43:58,460 --> 00:43:56,970
is unable to kind of drag a few more

1072
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:58,470
people kicking and screaming into the

1073
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:02,160
dark pit that it is and and you know we

1074
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:04,110
have a few more victims to feed upon so

1075
00:44:08,570 --> 00:44:06,570
it's a good thing overall debunkers are

1076
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:08,580
a good thing and flame wars are fine

1077
00:44:12,590 --> 00:44:10,530
whatever I mean you know thick-skinned

1078
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:12,600
and all but I've never been sort of the

1079
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:15,210
victim of really major flame attack so I

1080
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:16,530
can't really speak to it I know there's

1081
00:44:18,890 --> 00:44:17,730
other people and I shouldn't say

1082
00:44:20,090 --> 00:44:18,900
anything but under other people sort of

1083
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:20,100
in the UFO community who really have

1084
00:44:25,250 --> 00:44:22,370
been attacked so I'm sure it's terrible

1085
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:25,260
and I'm being I'll totally like serious

1086
00:44:29,690 --> 00:44:26,850
and honest I'm it's probably just

1087
00:44:32,090 --> 00:44:29,700
disgusting what people say but the flame

1088
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:32,100
wars aside the the sort of the honest

1089
00:44:35,930 --> 00:44:33,690
discussion and debate is what's

1090
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:35,940
essential to this to the survival of the

1091
00:44:41,380 --> 00:44:38,940
discourse we have by the time this airs

1092
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:41,390
we may already have had this information

1093
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:43,440
divulged to us even though it's been

1094
00:44:48,050 --> 00:44:45,210
about a year since we were supposed to

1095
00:44:51,290 --> 00:44:48,060
get it there is a hot-button issue that

1096
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:51,300
we cannot get around that we've all been

1097
00:44:58,490 --> 00:44:54,480
faced with time and time again and that

1098
00:45:01,070 --> 00:44:58,500
is the Tom DeLonge thing I hate bringing

1099
00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:01,080
it up man but what do you what are your

1100
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:02,250
thoughts on this whole thing

1101
00:45:07,820 --> 00:45:05,250
i I'm trying to gauge the reaction from

1102
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:07,830
people who take this topic as serious as

1103
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,610
we do and to have someone of Tom DeLonge

1104
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:13,680
I guess I don't even know if notoriety

1105
00:45:20,549 --> 00:45:17,680
is the right word of his

1106
00:45:23,130 --> 00:45:20,559
perception within mainstream uh being

1107
00:45:24,990 --> 00:45:23,140
kind of the voice of ufology right now

1108
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:25,000
what do you make of this whole thing

1109
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:28,569
let's let's unpack this sure you got

1110
00:45:34,769 --> 00:45:30,910
your drink let's do it yeah I could use

1111
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:34,779
a refill but it's okay no yeah I think

1112
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:37,690
yeah this came up I think actually in a

1113
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:40,690
conversation somewhere um my my concern

1114
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:44,410
with the secret machines franchise and

1115
00:45:50,730 --> 00:45:48,250
the Tom DeLonge shtick is that because

1116
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:50,740
he has sort of significant financial

1117
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:55,359
backing he is able to really permeate

1118
00:45:59,670 --> 00:45:57,130
his message throughout kind of the

1119
00:46:01,079 --> 00:45:59,680
fabric of of you know potentially

1120
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:01,089
mainstream culture but at least within

1121
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:04,990
UFO culture itself and then what becomes

1122
00:46:09,390 --> 00:46:07,210
problematic is that if his message kind

1123
00:46:12,029 --> 00:46:09,400
of becomes the norm and it's problematic

1124
00:46:14,490 --> 00:46:12,039
not because it becomes the norm through

1125
00:46:16,380 --> 00:46:14,500
kind of academic rigor or it becomes the

1126
00:46:19,170 --> 00:46:16,390
norm through study or it becomes norm

1127
00:46:22,019 --> 00:46:19,180
through actual work but rather it

1128
00:46:24,420 --> 00:46:22,029
becomes the norm simply because of his

1129
00:46:25,769 --> 00:46:24,430
funding he's able to just do social

1130
00:46:28,289 --> 00:46:25,779
media blitzes he's able to do

1131
00:46:30,329 --> 00:46:28,299
advertising blitzes he's able to release

1132
00:46:32,510 --> 00:46:30,339
whatever he wants and take a take a

1133
00:46:35,309 --> 00:46:32,520
financial loss and it doesn't matter

1134
00:46:38,490 --> 00:46:35,319
he has significant sort of resources

1135
00:46:42,329 --> 00:46:38,500
behind him and and what you don't want

1136
00:46:45,299 --> 00:46:42,339
is for those financial resources to be

1137
00:46:47,339 --> 00:46:45,309
the reason why his message becomes kind

1138
00:46:50,519 --> 00:46:47,349
of an ideological norm within UFO

1139
00:46:54,539 --> 00:46:50,529
culture you don't want him to become the

1140
00:46:56,190 --> 00:46:54,549
next kind of ETH in a sense right what

1141
00:46:58,319 --> 00:46:56,200
will avenge what will ultimately occur

1142
00:47:00,000 --> 00:46:58,329
and I don't know if you know if mr.

1143
00:47:02,549 --> 00:47:00,010
DeLong listens to your show and I hope

1144
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:02,559
he does I hope you're listening I'm a

1145
00:47:08,099 --> 00:47:04,210
big fan of blink-182

1146
00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:08,109
I grew up in the 90s anyway so I'm a bad

1147
00:47:11,940 --> 00:47:10,390
man I feel bad being critical well

1148
00:47:13,710 --> 00:47:11,950
that's a thing like this is if I'm come

1149
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:13,720
true for someone like you and I who grew

1150
00:47:18,690 --> 00:47:16,210
up idolizing this band in this you know

1151
00:47:20,910 --> 00:47:18,700
these songwriters and now to have them

1152
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:20,920
at the forefront of something we find so

1153
00:47:24,690 --> 00:47:22,240
passionate as UFOs

1154
00:47:26,789 --> 00:47:24,700
it was exciting at first and now it's

1155
00:47:30,059 --> 00:47:26,799
just sort of a slow burn at this point

1156
00:47:31,359 --> 00:47:30,069
it well and further what like my concern

1157
00:47:35,170 --> 00:47:31,369
is ultimately

1158
00:47:36,849 --> 00:47:35,180
what happens to the voices of the people

1159
00:47:39,849 --> 00:47:36,859
within the UFO subculture who don't

1160
00:47:42,970 --> 00:47:39,859
necessarily agree with his position do

1161
00:47:46,269 --> 00:47:42,980
they get drowned out because his voice

1162
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:46,279
is simply louder and that is the big

1163
00:47:51,370 --> 00:47:49,130
concern he can pump out like his band a

1164
00:47:53,589 --> 00:47:51,380
lot of volume he can reach high decibel

1165
00:47:57,519 --> 00:47:53,599
levels the rest of us can't write my

1166
00:47:59,710 --> 00:47:57,529
blog you know maybe get you know a few

1167
00:48:01,029 --> 00:47:59,720
hits a day you know I think I maybe get

1168
00:48:03,940 --> 00:48:01,039
you know a couple thousand hits a month

1169
00:48:06,279 --> 00:48:03,950
I guess you know I am NOT a major sort

1170
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:06,289
of voice within UFO discourse so what

1171
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:09,680
happens to sort of all of my work what

1172
00:48:14,769 --> 00:48:11,690
happens to my research especially with

1173
00:48:16,809 --> 00:48:14,779
counters or it disagrees with his it

1174
00:48:19,450 --> 00:48:16,819
just simply vanishes right and I think

1175
00:48:21,489 --> 00:48:19,460
what's going to occur is if the secret

1176
00:48:24,579 --> 00:48:21,499
machines project kind of continues

1177
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:24,589
unabated and it continues on sort of

1178
00:48:28,749 --> 00:48:27,170
pushing whatever the ideology whatever

1179
00:48:31,690 --> 00:48:28,759
the message is what's going to

1180
00:48:34,299 --> 00:48:31,700
eventually occur is it's going to kind

1181
00:48:37,450 --> 00:48:34,309
of wash the rest of us out we're going

1182
00:48:40,539 --> 00:48:37,460
to kind of be silenced in this and we're

1183
00:48:43,450 --> 00:48:40,549
just kind of kind of vanish and die slow

1184
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:43,460
death as a sort of Tom DeLonge reality

1185
00:48:51,839 --> 00:48:47,450
becomes the reality and and that is my

1186
00:48:55,180 --> 00:48:51,849
my big concern it's not often that

1187
00:48:58,539 --> 00:48:55,190
people within the UFO community suddenly

1188
00:49:00,099 --> 00:48:58,549
are given immense amounts of resources

1189
00:49:03,279 --> 00:49:00,109
to do whatever the hell they want with

1190
00:49:06,460 --> 00:49:03,289
that never happen or it's just rare

1191
00:49:08,079 --> 00:49:06,470
right in fact I I don't actually know

1192
00:49:10,420 --> 00:49:08,089
I'm not actually sure if I can ten sort

1193
00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:10,430
of find someone right like maybe Project

1194
00:49:14,289 --> 00:49:12,079
Blue Book you know but even then they

1195
00:49:16,539 --> 00:49:14,299
had financial problems so you know

1196
00:49:18,970 --> 00:49:16,549
ultimately that you don't get sort of

1197
00:49:21,009 --> 00:49:18,980
these groups that are able to influence

1198
00:49:23,499 --> 00:49:21,019
the message and he is able to influence

1199
00:49:27,460 --> 00:49:23,509
the message as a guy who started off as

1200
00:49:30,220 --> 00:49:27,470
a punk rocker and had a countercultural

1201
00:49:33,579 --> 00:49:30,230
message he is very quickly becoming the

1202
00:49:38,979 --> 00:49:33,589
new culture of UFOs he is becoming the

1203
00:49:41,650 --> 00:49:38,989
ivory tower the elite UFO message and he

1204
00:49:43,090 --> 00:49:41,660
is no longer countercultural right he is

1205
00:49:48,910 --> 00:49:43,100
becoming

1206
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:48,920
the main point of information and this

1207
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:51,410
is interesting and then problematic and

1208
00:49:55,180 --> 00:49:52,730
frightening and cool all at the same

1209
00:49:57,310 --> 00:49:55,190
time it really is man and it kind of

1210
00:49:59,830 --> 00:49:57,320
brings up that whole ethical dilemma you

1211
00:50:03,420 --> 00:49:59,840
know I remember once being asked like if

1212
00:50:06,970 --> 00:50:03,430
you could be given the truth about UFOs

1213
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:06,980
what we know but you can't tell anyone

1214
00:50:13,270 --> 00:50:09,850
about it ever like would you do it and

1215
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:13,280
you know and and would you feed

1216
00:50:17,710 --> 00:50:15,650
disinformation to the public you know

1217
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:17,720
for us if we were to give you the truth

1218
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:20,210
and that's different that's something

1219
00:50:24,190 --> 00:50:21,710
I've struggles with for a really long

1220
00:50:26,170 --> 00:50:24,200
time you know that extremely selfish

1221
00:50:27,730 --> 00:50:26,180
side of me wants to be like you know

1222
00:50:30,220 --> 00:50:27,740
[\h__\h] yet I want to know I've been

1223
00:50:32,410 --> 00:50:30,230
studying this for half my life but then

1224
00:50:35,530 --> 00:50:32,420
you know that that other side always

1225
00:50:38,860 --> 00:50:35,540
creeps up and says like you know you owe

1226
00:50:41,650 --> 00:50:38,870
it to the public to continue the truth

1227
00:50:43,780 --> 00:50:41,660
and not perpetuating these these ideas

1228
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:43,790
and this disinformation and this that

1229
00:50:47,050 --> 00:50:45,530
this that and you have to wonder with

1230
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:47,060
someone like Tom DeLonge like you said

1231
00:50:52,540 --> 00:50:50,210
with so much disposable income that it's

1232
00:50:54,670 --> 00:50:52,550
not about making money for him the

1233
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:54,680
secret machines is not a franchise that

1234
00:50:59,740 --> 00:50:57,410
he hopes to become a second over

1235
00:51:01,930 --> 00:50:59,750
millionaire with like you know I talked

1236
00:51:03,730 --> 00:51:01,940
to Mike Demonte about this you he

1237
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:03,740
doesn't need the money he doesn't give a

1238
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:04,910
[\h__\h] about the money

1239
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:07,040
like he's not making that much off of

1240
00:51:10,930 --> 00:51:08,810
this he's probably spending a [\h__\h] ton

1241
00:51:13,060 --> 00:51:10,940
of money to get the writers he's working

1242
00:51:15,940 --> 00:51:13,070
with to to get the information he's

1243
00:51:18,850 --> 00:51:15,950
working on and you just have to wonder

1244
00:51:21,010 --> 00:51:18,860
what are his intentions by getting this

1245
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:21,020
information from these people he may be

1246
00:51:26,740 --> 00:51:24,170
speaking to in you know highest levels

1247
00:51:28,570 --> 00:51:26,750
of authority or having once been in the

1248
00:51:30,790 --> 00:51:28,580
highest levels of authority what is the

1249
00:51:32,890 --> 00:51:30,800
endgame what what is he getting and what

1250
00:51:35,230 --> 00:51:32,900
does he be being told to give to the

1251
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:35,240
public let's assume you know he's not

1252
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:37,280
Felicia like let's assume he's not

1253
00:51:40,990 --> 00:51:39,650
messing with anyone right like I'm

1254
00:51:42,460 --> 00:51:41,000
willing to give the guy the benefit of

1255
00:51:45,130 --> 00:51:42,470
doubt like I'm willing to say Tom

1256
00:51:47,830 --> 00:51:45,140
DeLonge believes 100% in what he's doing

1257
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:47,840
me too I don't think he's lying I don't

1258
00:51:51,850 --> 00:51:50,690
think he's doing it just for a laugh or

1259
00:51:53,260 --> 00:51:51,860
just to take the piss or just to take

1260
00:51:54,250 --> 00:51:53,270
money like I don't think that's his I

1261
00:51:56,819 --> 00:51:54,260
don't think that's what he's doing I

1262
00:51:58,769 --> 00:51:56,829
think ultimately he believes so

1263
00:52:01,410 --> 00:51:58,779
fundamentally this is what I think is

1264
00:52:02,309 --> 00:52:01,420
going on with the UFO question so so

1265
00:52:05,819 --> 00:52:02,319
that's fine

1266
00:52:08,579 --> 00:52:05,829
my concern is not that my concern is is

1267
00:52:10,829 --> 00:52:08,589
is that like I said if his message

1268
00:52:14,009 --> 00:52:10,839
becomes the norm what happens to all of

1269
00:52:15,539 --> 00:52:14,019
the voices of dissent right what happens

1270
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:15,549
to all the voices who disagree with him

1271
00:52:18,989 --> 00:52:17,650
he is like I said he's simply able to

1272
00:52:20,459 --> 00:52:18,999
wipe us off the face of the earth right

1273
00:52:23,699 --> 00:52:20,469
he's simply able to just be around us

1274
00:52:24,509 --> 00:52:23,709
out with boosted social media posts and

1275
00:52:26,759 --> 00:52:24,519
Twitter

1276
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:26,769
you know campaigns and whatever that he

1277
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:28,930
can just you know do whatever he wants

1278
00:52:34,979 --> 00:52:31,119
you know create websites and and like

1279
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:34,989
you say hire amazing writers to really

1280
00:52:39,930 --> 00:52:37,930
sort of push his work go to Hollywood

1281
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:39,940
write and create films you know like

1282
00:52:44,339 --> 00:52:42,729
ultimately his ability to get that

1283
00:52:46,229 --> 00:52:44,349
message out there is significantly

1284
00:52:47,940 --> 00:52:46,239
greater than sort of any of us and in

1285
00:52:49,109 --> 00:52:47,950
fact I would say the his ability to get

1286
00:52:50,789 --> 00:52:49,119
that message out there is saying

1287
00:52:52,769 --> 00:52:50,799
differently greater than probably all of

1288
00:52:54,479 --> 00:52:52,779
the UFO community put together you know

1289
00:52:57,329 --> 00:52:54,489
what I mean like he probably has more

1290
00:52:59,400 --> 00:52:57,339
financial backing than most of the UFO

1291
00:53:00,809 --> 00:52:59,410
community combined when you really look

1292
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:00,819
at you know people within the UFO

1293
00:53:06,599 --> 00:53:03,130
subculture like everyone's broke right

1294
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:06,609
broke-ass ufologist it's crazy right

1295
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:08,410
because you can't make money and ufology

1296
00:53:12,180 --> 00:53:09,729
there's no there's like there's there's

1297
00:53:14,999 --> 00:53:12,190
very little avenue very few avenues

1298
00:53:16,199 --> 00:53:15,009
rather to make sort of a living and I

1299
00:53:17,729 --> 00:53:16,209
don't mean like a living that you can

1300
00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:17,739
like you pay your bills and that's it I

1301
00:53:20,939 --> 00:53:18,910
mean like a living and then have

1302
00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:20,949
disposable income thereafter right

1303
00:53:26,279 --> 00:53:24,190
everyone has a day job right I am NOT

1304
00:53:28,739 --> 00:53:26,289
you know financially able to throw you

1305
00:53:30,359 --> 00:53:28,749
know 60 grand into my work like no

1306
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:30,369
chance in hell can I do that right I got

1307
00:53:33,809 --> 00:53:32,170
mortgage I got and we got bills and I

1308
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,819
got kids and what you know so ultimately

1309
00:53:39,630 --> 00:53:36,160
you know DeLong has this ability to have

1310
00:53:41,519 --> 00:53:39,640
significant influence over the UFO

1311
00:53:44,699 --> 00:53:41,529
community it is scary and you have to

1312
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:44,709
wonder if like he says it's true that he

1313
00:53:50,309 --> 00:53:48,130
was chosen to do this like why why did

1314
00:53:52,410 --> 00:53:50,319
they pick him and this very well could

1315
00:53:55,799 --> 00:53:52,420
be the reason the guy doesn't give a

1316
00:53:58,019 --> 00:53:55,809
[\h__\h] what anyone thinks he has them he

1317
00:54:00,420 --> 00:53:58,029
has the luxury of being able to do it

1318
00:54:03,150 --> 00:54:00,430
and put as much money into it as he

1319
00:54:03,900 --> 00:54:03,160
wants what better I guess almost like

1320
00:54:06,769 --> 00:54:03,910
patchy

1321
00:54:10,380 --> 00:54:06,779
could you put you afford at that point

1322
00:54:14,670 --> 00:54:10,390
again I I agree with you I think DeLong

1323
00:54:16,559 --> 00:54:14,680
has very I would say altruistic but very

1324
00:54:18,779 --> 00:54:16,569
he's very passionate about the topic and

1325
00:54:20,490 --> 00:54:18,789
does want to get the information out

1326
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:20,500
there I don't think it's going to be the

1327
00:54:25,710 --> 00:54:22,510
information that many of us expect or

1328
00:54:27,930 --> 00:54:25,720
like but the mainstream will in like

1329
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:27,940
yeah that's the power someone like him

1330
00:54:31,799 --> 00:54:30,400
has yeah and I think ultimately guys

1331
00:54:33,809 --> 00:54:31,809
like you say right he believes in his

1332
00:54:35,339 --> 00:54:33,819
message and this becomes problematic

1333
00:54:39,299 --> 00:54:35,349
especially if he's presented with

1334
00:54:41,759 --> 00:54:39,309
evidence or or theory or or philosophy

1335
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:41,769
or science that counters his belief

1336
00:54:47,309 --> 00:54:44,410
right right like he's coming to his

1337
00:54:48,809 --> 00:54:47,319
secret Machines project with sure people

1338
00:54:51,180 --> 00:54:48,819
are telling him things he has evidence

1339
00:54:52,829 --> 00:54:51,190
whatever it is you know like he's not

1340
00:54:54,089 --> 00:54:52,839
just walking and making [\h__\h] up but he's

1341
00:54:56,009 --> 00:54:54,099
ultimately sort of getting information

1342
00:54:57,420 --> 00:54:56,019
from somewhere but he's believing it

1343
00:54:59,339 --> 00:54:57,430
right or at least he's believing enough

1344
00:55:00,960 --> 00:54:59,349
to publish it if he's presented then was

1345
00:55:03,269 --> 00:55:00,970
evidence that counters those beliefs

1346
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:03,279
that counters has sort of predisposition

1347
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:06,880
is the counters his current ideological

1348
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:09,250
sort of baggage that he's bringing to

1349
00:55:14,250 --> 00:55:11,650
the UFO table is he going to then say

1350
00:55:16,319 --> 00:55:14,260
holy crap I screwed up here's the here's

1351
00:55:18,029 --> 00:55:16,329
my error here's what I now think or

1352
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:18,039
here's my new evidence or my new theory

1353
00:55:22,049 --> 00:55:19,930
or whatever or is he going to keep kind

1354
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:22,059
of riding his belief train like most of

1355
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:23,920
us do and he's going to keep saying liya

1356
00:55:28,710 --> 00:55:26,559
that's nonsense the the people who see

1357
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:28,720
the bunny rabbit walk out of the UFO

1358
00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:32,170
that's nonsense but the people who see

1359
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:35,440
the greys that isn't right and again why

1360
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:37,450
is one nonsense and why is one not

1361
00:55:43,950 --> 00:55:41,890
nonsense and and and DeLong is is

1362
00:55:45,059 --> 00:55:43,960
functions with an ideology like the rest

1363
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:45,069
because he's going to have his own

1364
00:55:47,849 --> 00:55:46,569
opinion and his own series and his own

1365
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:47,859
thoughts and shoot off like the rest of

1366
00:55:49,950 --> 00:55:49,089
us and you're going to buy into them

1367
00:55:51,620 --> 00:55:49,960
you're going to believe them and you

1368
00:55:54,210 --> 00:55:51,630
need to defend them to the bitter end

1369
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:54,220
not necessarily make money or sell books

1370
00:55:57,839 --> 00:55:55,450
but because that's just kind of how

1371
00:55:59,160 --> 00:55:57,849
humans function somebody counters you on

1372
00:56:02,279 --> 00:55:59,170
something you're going to entrench

1373
00:56:04,049 --> 00:56:02,289
yourself more and this is again my fear

1374
00:56:07,769 --> 00:56:04,059
right this is how the ETH kind of

1375
00:56:10,410 --> 00:56:07,779
hijacks ufology people just believed it

1376
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:10,420
and it became the norm and now everyone

1377
00:56:15,150 --> 00:56:13,359
thinks everyone within UFO discourse

1378
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:15,160
believes in alien it's like a thing

1379
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:21,359
right and and is the DeLong the DeLong

1380
00:56:26,270 --> 00:56:23,160
incident

1381
00:56:29,180 --> 00:56:26,280
is this gonna be the new normal right is

1382
00:56:30,710 --> 00:56:29,190
this going to be the fundamental belief

1383
00:56:33,470 --> 00:56:30,720
system within ufology

1384
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:33,480
even if current evidence counters it I

1385
00:56:37,100 --> 00:56:34,770
don't know man

1386
00:56:38,300 --> 00:56:37,110
yeah I hope Tom's listening because I'd

1387
00:56:41,150 --> 00:56:38,310
want to be I'm not being critical i guy

1388
00:56:43,970 --> 00:56:41,160
I just kind of needs to be aware of the

1389
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:43,980
ideological power he has within the UFO

1390
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:48,450
community and the sway he holds yeah you

1391
00:56:55,490 --> 00:56:50,730
know if he is listening which would be

1392
00:56:57,530 --> 00:56:55,500
amazing we're here for you man we both

1393
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:57,540
said you know if you ever want to reach

1394
00:57:03,410 --> 00:57:00,240
out we're here on a percent let's time

1395
00:57:05,660 --> 00:57:03,420
for that never - never too late to meet

1396
00:57:08,990 --> 00:57:05,670
your heroes for sure well you know

1397
00:57:11,420 --> 00:57:09,000
moving past the DeLong dilemma I guess

1398
00:57:17,330 --> 00:57:11,430
by the time this airs it'll probably be

1399
00:57:20,750 --> 00:57:17,340
out MJ but you have a open letter to UFO

1400
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:20,760
TV producers now we kind of touched on

1401
00:57:24,770 --> 00:57:23,280
this a little bit but I want to I want

1402
00:57:28,580 --> 00:57:24,780
to hear all about this because as a

1403
00:57:31,610 --> 00:57:28,590
young UFO researcher I can admit that I

1404
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:31,620
have been contacted by dozens and dozens

1405
00:57:39,410 --> 00:57:36,090
of UFO excuse me by TV producers to

1406
00:57:40,970 --> 00:57:39,420
develop UFO shows it never happens once

1407
00:57:42,290 --> 00:57:40,980
they're excited about it

1408
00:57:43,790 --> 00:57:42,300
but with all we're going to go out and

1409
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:43,800
we're going to have you like you know

1410
00:57:47,780 --> 00:57:45,330
searching the skies and climbing a

1411
00:57:49,850 --> 00:57:47,790
mountain and scuba diving and this that

1412
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:49,860
and then when it comes time for them to

1413
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:52,050
actually sit down and do it or put money

1414
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:54,450
behind it it never happens and that's

1415
00:58:00,080 --> 00:57:57,210
because there's very little evidence out

1416
00:58:03,710 --> 00:58:00,090
there for someone on a UFO TV show to

1417
00:58:05,930 --> 00:58:03,720
actually go out and investigate so we

1418
00:58:09,050 --> 00:58:05,940
have a big dilemma when it comes to

1419
00:58:11,380 --> 00:58:09,060
mainstream television in UFOs as hard as

1420
00:58:14,270 --> 00:58:11,390
they try it never seems to really work

1421
00:58:17,210 --> 00:58:14,280
UFO Hunters lasted for three seasons

1422
00:58:18,410 --> 00:58:17,220
which is pretty damn good if you know in

1423
00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:18,420
my opinion a long time

1424
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:20,670
that's a long time for a UFO show so

1425
00:58:27,050 --> 00:58:23,610
what do you think what why is this is it

1426
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:27,060
the ETH you think or what what is this

1427
00:58:30,860 --> 00:58:28,530
open letter that you want to get out to

1428
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:30,870
those people maybe we can actually get

1429
00:58:36,980 --> 00:58:34,050
them to listen for once sure yeah so so

1430
00:58:38,930 --> 00:58:36,990
the open letter is basically well it's

1431
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:38,940
a little philosophical so I'm not going

1432
00:58:44,330 --> 00:58:40,530
to touch on that you can read it on my

1433
00:58:45,380 --> 00:58:44,340
blog but these shows come out and like I

1434
00:58:46,490 --> 00:58:45,390
said they're on History Channel or

1435
00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:46,500
Discovery Chandler

1436
00:58:50,030 --> 00:58:48,240
you know outdoor life network or you

1437
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:50,040
know whoever it's producing these shows

1438
00:58:55,490 --> 00:58:53,610
they kind of follow the same pattern all

1439
00:58:58,810 --> 00:58:55,500
the time but but they all fundamentally

1440
00:59:03,020 --> 00:58:58,820
push the extra-terrestrial hypothesis as

1441
00:59:04,820 --> 00:59:03,030
sort of the key sorry they push the

1442
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:04,830
extra trestle hypothesis as the main

1443
00:59:09,530 --> 00:59:08,010
sort of ideology of UFO discourse and

1444
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:09,540
they basically say stuff like UFO

1445
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:11,850
researchers believe or as MUFON files

1446
00:59:14,780 --> 00:59:13,770
suggest and I'm just joking they don't

1447
00:59:17,150 --> 00:59:14,790
hangar one with stupid

1448
00:59:20,030 --> 00:59:17,160
they they they basically say things like

1449
00:59:24,740 --> 00:59:20,040
you know people who people who research

1450
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:24,750
UFOs think it's aliens right and the

1451
00:59:29,030 --> 00:59:27,210
meme of the guy from ancient aliens with

1452
00:59:30,140 --> 00:59:29,040
a crazy hair and a members name but you

1453
00:59:32,060 --> 00:59:30,150
know it's like I'm not saying it's

1454
00:59:33,770 --> 00:59:32,070
aliens but it's aliens if that that mean

1455
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:33,780
it mean everyone knows it it's the

1456
00:59:39,170 --> 00:59:37,170
picture of it it's really permeated

1457
00:59:40,609 --> 00:59:39,180
mainstream culture to the point where

1458
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:40,619
like we've sort of talked about already

1459
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:44,400
the extra tresses is to the mainstream

1460
00:59:52,940 --> 00:59:48,960
what UFOs are they've become the reality

1461
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:52,950
for the mainstream this is not true in

1462
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:55,050
my article I kind of you know kind of

1463
00:59:59,120 --> 00:59:57,119
clearly state this listen there's a wide

1464
01:00:02,870 --> 00:59:59,130
array of beliefs within the UFO

1465
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:02,880
community there's a wide array of of

1466
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:05,850
positions and and sort of ideological

1467
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:08,400
standpoint that we all kind of we kind

1468
01:00:12,220 --> 01:00:09,930
of debate all the time we don't really

1469
01:00:17,270 --> 01:00:12,230
coexist with this idea that it's alien

1470
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:17,280
we we kind of have this this chorus of

1471
01:00:24,230 --> 01:00:22,290
ideas that exist so my letter is kind of

1472
01:00:26,359 --> 01:00:24,240
calling out these TV show producers and

1473
01:00:28,910 --> 01:00:26,369
these documentary filmmakers and the Tom

1474
01:00:32,570 --> 01:00:28,920
DeLong's of the world now to kind of

1475
01:00:34,940 --> 01:00:32,580
look just kind of you know examine the

1476
01:00:36,830 --> 01:00:34,950
content you're putting out knowing full

1477
01:00:40,990 --> 01:00:36,840
well that it's totally bogus and

1478
01:00:44,510 --> 01:00:41,000
nonsense not everyone buys into alien

1479
01:00:46,730 --> 01:00:44,520
and why do these shows push that idea

1480
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:46,740
and really if you really think about it

1481
01:00:50,510 --> 01:00:48,690
and I sort of touched on this a bit in

1482
01:00:53,150 --> 01:00:50,520
the article but not much

1483
01:00:55,220 --> 01:00:53,160
TV show producers produce these shows

1484
01:00:56,870 --> 01:00:55,230
then for sort of one of two reasons one

1485
01:01:00,500 --> 01:00:56,880
they believe in the extra-terrestrial

1486
01:01:03,050 --> 01:01:00,510
hypothesis or they want to kind of push

1487
01:01:04,490 --> 01:01:03,060
UFO discourse deeper into the fringe by

1488
01:01:06,380 --> 01:01:04,500
basically saying look at all these crazy

1489
01:01:08,420 --> 01:01:06,390
people who believe in aliens because

1490
01:01:10,220 --> 01:01:08,430
ultimately there's no other option

1491
01:01:12,260 --> 01:01:10,230
there's no other place that they're

1492
01:01:14,210 --> 01:01:12,270
coming from they're either buying into

1493
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:14,220
100% or they don't buy into it and

1494
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:17,490
they're just trying to establish the UFO

1495
01:01:22,070 --> 01:01:19,890
community is just a bunch of loony Bin's

1496
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:22,080
that fringe dwellers right who believe

1497
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:26,970
in ET so these shows these these UFO

1498
01:01:32,270 --> 01:01:30,050
shows that come out like hangar 1 like

1499
01:01:35,210 --> 01:01:32,280
UFOs the lost evidence which is the

1500
01:01:38,450 --> 01:01:35,220
newest one that just came out they kind

1501
01:01:40,570 --> 01:01:38,460
of subjugate the UFO discourse further

1502
01:01:42,710 --> 01:01:40,580
into the fringe they push us deeper into

1503
01:01:46,010 --> 01:01:42,720
sort of the fringes of mainstream

1504
01:01:48,620 --> 01:01:46,020
culture and they don't do us any favors

1505
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:48,630
I have to be honest a lot of people kind

1506
01:01:52,670 --> 01:01:50,490
of say hey these shows are great because

1507
01:01:55,730 --> 01:01:52,680
you know finally you know History

1508
01:01:57,890 --> 01:01:55,740
Channel is talking about you know UFOs

1509
01:02:00,380 --> 01:01:57,900
and aliens for once it's like okay fine

1510
01:02:01,670 --> 01:02:00,390
but what damage is it doing to the

1511
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:01,680
people who are doing honest research

1512
01:02:04,940 --> 01:02:02,970
what damage is it doing to the people

1513
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:04,950
who are actually out there investigating

1514
01:02:09,980 --> 01:02:07,410
sightings and what damage is doing to to

1515
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:09,990
the witnesses who report these sightings

1516
01:02:13,370 --> 01:02:11,730
especially if they've had like Close

1517
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:13,380
Encounters or contact phenomena or

1518
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:15,570
abduction phenomena happen to them is

1519
01:02:19,970 --> 01:02:18,510
they're getting dumped on this this idea

1520
01:02:22,430 --> 01:02:19,980
that this is what's happening it's

1521
01:02:25,430 --> 01:02:22,440
aliens when in reality there's no

1522
01:02:27,650 --> 01:02:25,440
evidence to support that really right so

1523
01:02:30,650 --> 01:02:27,660
I think I think my kind of the point of

1524
01:02:34,609 --> 01:02:30,660
my open letter is to kind of to the

1525
01:02:36,020 --> 01:02:34,619
people who produce these TV shows to

1526
01:02:39,140 --> 01:02:36,030
either kind of you know like put up or

1527
01:02:41,570 --> 01:02:39,150
shut up right produce an honest

1528
01:02:42,950 --> 01:02:41,580
television show or don't produce one at

1529
01:02:45,950 --> 01:02:42,960
all right hmm

1530
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:45,960
stop producing [\h__\h] yeah and that's

1531
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:47,970
kind of what the point of the open

1532
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:49,920
letter is the problem is I know how

1533
01:02:52,579 --> 01:02:51,330
difficult this is right TV show

1534
01:02:55,670 --> 01:02:52,589
producers don't really give a crap about

1535
01:02:57,230 --> 01:02:55,680
you and me or anyone apart from maybe is

1536
01:02:58,849 --> 01:02:57,240
lining their own pockets or lining the

1537
01:03:00,740 --> 01:02:58,859
pockets of their bosses yeah I'm not

1538
01:03:02,450 --> 01:03:00,750
gonna get a show now holy crap I think

1539
01:03:04,309 --> 01:03:02,460
that back not all

1540
01:03:07,460 --> 01:03:04,319
some of them are great some of them are

1541
01:03:08,750 --> 01:03:07,470
wonderful human beings who I don't know

1542
01:03:12,380 --> 01:03:08,760
donate money to charities and they're

1543
01:03:14,329 --> 01:03:12,390
wonderful yeah but a lot of them really

1544
01:03:18,049 --> 01:03:14,339
don't care right it's just to make a

1545
01:03:19,609 --> 01:03:18,059
dollar right on the show so ultimately

1546
01:03:22,579 --> 01:03:19,619
you know the UFO community isn't really

1547
01:03:23,780 --> 01:03:22,589
able to influence these people because

1548
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:23,790
if they don't care they don't care

1549
01:03:28,460 --> 01:03:27,119
exactly our article kind of establishes

1550
01:03:31,790 --> 01:03:28,470
then what we need to do as a community

1551
01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:31,800
is all of us in the community who show

1552
01:03:36,620 --> 01:03:33,510
who show up on these TV shows who are on

1553
01:03:38,839 --> 01:03:36,630
these TV shows need to kind of

1554
01:03:40,599 --> 01:03:38,849
fundamentally pressure each other we

1555
01:03:43,010 --> 01:03:40,609
need to pressure the so-called experts

1556
01:03:45,620 --> 01:03:43,020
out there who show up on these TV shows

1557
01:03:48,890 --> 01:03:45,630
to kind of pressure the TV producers

1558
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:48,900
right to basically say listen I'm not

1559
01:03:53,030 --> 01:03:50,490
going to say what you've written on the

1560
01:03:55,819 --> 01:03:53,040
cue card absolutely because it's total

1561
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:55,829
BS I'm going to say what I think right

1562
01:03:59,839 --> 01:03:58,079
because I believe it or because I've

1563
01:04:01,400 --> 01:03:59,849
researched it or because I have

1564
01:04:04,190 --> 01:04:01,410
scientific evidence to support it or

1565
01:04:06,140 --> 01:04:04,200
because I have philosophical rationality

1566
01:04:09,230 --> 01:04:06,150
or philosophical reasoning rather to

1567
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:09,240
support it ultimately we need to kind of

1568
01:04:13,970 --> 01:04:10,890
be responsible for ourselves the

1569
01:04:15,950 --> 01:04:13,980
community and we need to kind of let the

1570
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:15,960
experts within our community and I put

1571
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:17,730
experts in kind of floating quotes that

1572
01:04:24,530 --> 01:04:20,250
you can see because this is radio or

1573
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:24,540
podcast but the big names within the UFO

1574
01:04:30,710 --> 01:04:26,880
community need to kind of be put on

1575
01:04:34,549 --> 01:04:30,720
notice right and it's tough because you

1576
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,559
know egos exist right people want to be

1577
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:36,960
on TV oh hell I'd love to be on TV

1578
01:04:40,940 --> 01:04:39,450
so you know at the end of the day you

1579
01:04:42,859 --> 01:04:40,950
know if somebody holds a cue card in

1580
01:04:43,789 --> 01:04:42,869
front of me that says it's aliens am I

1581
01:04:46,150 --> 01:04:43,799
going to read that cue card

1582
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:46,160
I don't know when push comes to shove

1583
01:04:52,039 --> 01:04:50,130
yeah I mean the the glory of editing is

1584
01:04:54,170 --> 01:04:52,049
always on their side as well that's true

1585
01:04:55,309 --> 01:04:54,180
you can be like aliens you're crazy and

1586
01:04:58,000 --> 01:04:55,319
it like they cut out everything about

1587
01:05:01,099 --> 01:04:58,010
your crazy alien yeah oh

1588
01:05:01,609 --> 01:05:01,109
editing love and hate relationship for

1589
01:05:03,650 --> 01:05:01,619
sure

1590
01:05:07,130 --> 01:05:03,660
I've done a couple episodes of a TV show

1591
01:05:09,470 --> 01:05:07,140
and I spent hours saying the same thing

1592
01:05:10,339 --> 01:05:09,480
over and over again slightly changing a

1593
01:05:12,799 --> 01:05:10,349
word here and there

1594
01:05:14,339 --> 01:05:12,809
MJ literally just so that I would not

1595
01:05:17,279 --> 01:05:14,349
come off

1596
01:05:19,439 --> 01:05:17,289
the hardcore believer or say it was

1597
01:05:23,249 --> 01:05:19,449
aliens you know even just saying the

1598
01:05:25,529 --> 01:05:23,259
word it could be you know one allegedly

1599
01:05:28,109 --> 01:05:25,539
allegedly makes all the difference in

1600
01:05:30,779 --> 01:05:28,119
the world so anyone out there who gets

1601
01:05:34,529 --> 01:05:30,789
on a UFO show or gets interviewed about

1602
01:05:36,599 --> 01:05:34,539
UFOs like challenge them see how far you

1603
01:05:39,509 --> 01:05:36,609
can take it because they can only edit

1604
01:05:41,279 --> 01:05:39,519
so much and like you said if they can't

1605
01:05:43,049 --> 01:05:41,289
get what they want out of it they're

1606
01:05:46,709 --> 01:05:43,059
just not going to air it and that might

1607
01:05:49,019 --> 01:05:46,719
be better off for everybody in my in my

1608
01:05:50,489 --> 01:05:49,029
mind I kind of have an idea for a show

1609
01:05:52,439 --> 01:05:50,499
that I think you and I could do and I

1610
01:05:54,059 --> 01:05:52,449
think that fundamentally I think it

1611
01:05:55,709 --> 01:05:54,069
would be a big shift from what's out

1612
01:05:57,299 --> 01:05:55,719
there and I think would be a very

1613
01:05:58,859 --> 01:05:57,309
interesting and I think it would be

1614
01:06:00,029 --> 01:05:58,869
honest and and that's kind of the key

1615
01:06:01,949 --> 01:06:00,039
thing I think it would be an honest

1616
01:06:04,620 --> 01:06:01,959
approach and it wouldn't be full of sort

1617
01:06:07,319 --> 01:06:04,630
of you know speculative nonsense

1618
01:06:09,029 --> 01:06:07,329
that that you know it kind of follows

1619
01:06:11,189 --> 01:06:09,039
the traditional model and I think that

1620
01:06:12,749 --> 01:06:11,199
you know if there's TV show producers

1621
01:06:14,609 --> 01:06:12,759
listening I think you know I could

1622
01:06:16,319 --> 01:06:14,619
probably pitch this show and I'm pretty

1623
01:06:18,180 --> 01:06:16,329
sure you'd be behind me on it absolutely

1624
01:06:21,420 --> 01:06:18,190
I know we've talked about this a few

1625
01:06:24,299 --> 01:06:21,430
times now having imbibed some alcohol

1626
01:06:27,239 --> 01:06:24,309
tonight let's pitch this man if anyone's

1627
01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:27,249
listening MJ and I are available we've

1628
01:06:33,269 --> 01:06:30,160
got the show ready to go and all we need

1629
01:06:35,489 --> 01:06:33,279
is is your faith that we can make it

1630
01:06:38,130 --> 01:06:35,499
happen so please pitch this to our

1631
01:06:41,939 --> 01:06:38,140
audience so I think ultimately what we

1632
01:06:44,870 --> 01:06:41,949
would do is we would sort of do a a show

1633
01:06:47,309 --> 01:06:44,880
where you and I travel around the world

1634
01:06:51,539 --> 01:06:47,319
Anthony Bourdain style like Anthony

1635
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:51,549
Bourdain parts unknown style and we go

1636
01:06:57,029 --> 01:06:54,880
to all of these sort of UFO hot spots in

1637
01:07:01,499 --> 01:06:57,039
these UFO sort of community places

1638
01:07:04,769 --> 01:07:01,509
wherever they are and we drink excellent

1639
01:07:06,479 --> 01:07:04,779
liquor from the area you know mean like

1640
01:07:08,849 --> 01:07:06,489
Anthony Bourdain does right and we eat

1641
01:07:10,859 --> 01:07:08,859
awesome food and and a lot of the focus

1642
01:07:12,749 --> 01:07:10,869
is like on the alcohol the food and you

1643
01:07:14,219 --> 01:07:12,759
know the chef comes out you know very

1644
01:07:16,259 --> 01:07:14,229
kind of like that you know you get to

1645
01:07:18,930 --> 01:07:16,269
kind of know the place from like a

1646
01:07:21,630 --> 01:07:18,940
gustatory way right you know we kind of

1647
01:07:24,089 --> 01:07:21,640
we eat and drink our way through I don't

1648
01:07:25,540 --> 01:07:24,099
know like New Mexico or something and

1649
01:07:28,900 --> 01:07:25,550
then we then

1650
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:28,910
instead of really like exploring and

1651
01:07:33,610 --> 01:07:31,130
rehashing old UFO cases that no one

1652
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:33,620
gives a crap about anymore or shouldn't

1653
01:07:37,750 --> 01:07:34,730
give a crapload anymore

1654
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:37,760
Roswell I'm sorry

1655
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:41,450
instead we we meet up at these great

1656
01:07:48,900 --> 01:07:43,730
sort of little restaurants or whatever

1657
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:48,910
we meet up with one like experiencer or

1658
01:07:55,870 --> 01:07:53,450
contact the or abductee or sighting like

1659
01:07:58,090 --> 01:07:55,880
witness you have UFO sighting witness or

1660
01:08:00,430 --> 01:07:58,100
whatever like we meet with someone had

1661
01:08:04,090 --> 01:08:00,440
an experience and then we meet with

1662
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:04,100
someone sort of in the UFO community who

1663
01:08:06,490 --> 01:08:05,330
doesn't necessarily be an expert you

1664
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:06,500
know we don't need to meet with sort of

1665
01:08:11,050 --> 01:08:09,410
the Richard Dolan's of the world he can

1666
01:08:12,370 --> 01:08:11,060
be in an episode he's great but

1667
01:08:14,620 --> 01:08:12,380
ultimately we can kind of meet with like

1668
01:08:17,050 --> 01:08:14,630
you know actual researchers and we can

1669
01:08:18,820 --> 01:08:17,060
actually have conversations about the

1670
01:08:20,170 --> 01:08:18,830
UFOs and you know if the producers want

1671
01:08:22,510 --> 01:08:20,180
to throw in like reenactments or

1672
01:08:24,250 --> 01:08:22,520
whatever we can do that that's fun you

1673
01:08:25,599 --> 01:08:24,260
know and and once in a while you know

1674
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:25,609
we'll go to really weird place like

1675
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:27,440
we're good like Tibet and we'll go like

1676
01:08:30,250 --> 01:08:28,970
hunt UFOs in Tibet or something you know

1677
01:08:32,500 --> 01:08:30,260
like we'll go meet with some Tibetan

1678
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:32,510
monk who had a UFO sighting and he's

1679
01:08:35,410 --> 01:08:33,770
going to talk about like the mystical

1680
01:08:37,090 --> 01:08:35,420
aspect behind it and then like we

1681
01:08:38,559 --> 01:08:37,100
dragged along Erica Luke's for the ride

1682
01:08:39,940 --> 01:08:38,569
or something and she hangs out with us

1683
01:08:41,710 --> 01:08:39,950
and she you know gives her

1684
01:08:44,170 --> 01:08:41,720
interpretation or something I don't know

1685
01:08:45,670 --> 01:08:44,180
we can do it but ultimately I think it

1686
01:08:46,690 --> 01:08:45,680
needs to be like Anthony Bourdain's

1687
01:08:52,870 --> 01:08:46,700
parts unknown

1688
01:08:56,700 --> 01:08:52,880
meets like a UFO Hunters meets like I

1689
01:09:00,250 --> 01:08:56,710
don't know III just have a destination

1690
01:09:01,329 --> 01:09:00,260
destory ruther yeah we kind of need to

1691
01:09:03,250 --> 01:09:01,339
tie them together so it's not

1692
01:09:05,170 --> 01:09:03,260
necessarily about like like I said

1693
01:09:06,730 --> 01:09:05,180
rehashing those old UFO cases or time

1694
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:06,740
with that it's more about the people

1695
01:09:11,230 --> 01:09:08,810
right it's more about the people and

1696
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:11,240
where they live and how this has

1697
01:09:15,570 --> 01:09:13,520
influences kind of their UFO experience

1698
01:09:17,950 --> 01:09:15,580
you know does growing up in Tibet

1699
01:09:19,420 --> 01:09:17,960
provide you a different UFO experience

1700
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:19,430
than growing up in New Mexico then

1701
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:21,770
growing up in Cuba then growing up in

1702
01:09:27,099 --> 01:09:24,530
Russia then growing up in I don't know

1703
01:09:28,630 --> 01:09:27,109
Egypt then growing up in like Nairobi

1704
01:09:29,710 --> 01:09:28,640
and Kenya you know mean like like we

1705
01:09:31,809 --> 01:09:29,720
need to kind of do something like that

1706
01:09:33,490 --> 01:09:31,819
that's my pitch because it's honest and

1707
01:09:35,260 --> 01:09:33,500
we would kind of have an assortment of

1708
01:09:37,780 --> 01:09:35,270
different you know UFO beliefs and

1709
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:37,790
ideologies and we would just eat and

1710
01:09:42,050 --> 01:09:39,210
drink awesome food

1711
01:09:44,329 --> 01:09:42,060
people who who don't care about UFOs

1712
01:09:45,349 --> 01:09:44,339
would watch it just for two guys going

1713
01:09:47,450 --> 01:09:45,359
to eat and drink their way around the

1714
01:09:49,070 --> 01:09:47,460
world and people who care about UFOs

1715
01:09:50,180 --> 01:09:49,080
would be like great it's also kind of

1716
01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:50,190
covers all those bases

1717
01:09:55,310 --> 01:09:52,080
absolutely well we're copywriting this

1718
01:09:57,709 --> 01:09:55,320
now man booze food and UFOs that's right

1719
01:09:59,780 --> 01:09:57,719
nothing it's like yeah we're caught yeah

1720
01:10:01,520 --> 01:09:59,790
100% it's gonna yeah I don't know I

1721
01:10:02,630 --> 01:10:01,530
don't have a title yet I have ideas for

1722
01:10:04,100 --> 01:10:02,640
a title but I don't want to say it

1723
01:10:07,790 --> 01:10:04,110
because someone might steal it exactly

1724
01:10:10,270 --> 01:10:07,800
um well you can copyright ideas so let's

1725
01:10:13,790 --> 01:10:10,280
officially say right now this is ours

1726
01:10:16,910 --> 01:10:13,800
yes we are 100 this is our show if you

1727
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:16,920
want to give us money to do it it's more

1728
01:10:20,900 --> 01:10:18,810
MJ's than mine just for the record guys

1729
01:10:22,670 --> 01:10:20,910
he did come up with this so I'm uh I'm

1730
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:22,680
just riding his coattails if this ever

1731
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:26,489
happens but in terms of what you got

1732
01:10:31,459 --> 01:10:29,370
going on what can we expect from first

1733
01:10:34,340 --> 01:10:31,469
give us the site tear obscura where can

1734
01:10:36,830 --> 01:10:34,350
we find all of your work sure yeah so I

1735
01:10:38,209 --> 01:10:36,840
do contribute to mysterious universe so

1736
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:38,219
if you have a urban universe that's

1737
01:10:42,140 --> 01:10:40,650
mysterious universe org and you can just

1738
01:10:44,330 --> 01:10:42,150
kind of go there and I'm sure you can

1739
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:44,340
kind of search for my name I'm all over

1740
01:10:48,979 --> 01:10:45,810
social media as well Facebook Instagram

1741
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:48,989
Twitter it's usually at MJ benaiah or

1742
01:10:54,020 --> 01:10:51,810
yeah I don't need to search me up but my

1743
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:54,030
main blog we're sort of everything kind

1744
01:10:56,959 --> 01:10:55,410
of that's the hub of everything you can

1745
01:11:02,060 --> 01:10:56,969
kind of access all of my content through

1746
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:02,070
there is WWE era obscura net if you just

1747
01:11:07,060 --> 01:11:04,290
google terrib scare a blog or tear

1748
01:11:11,390 --> 01:11:07,070
obscure UFOs it'll definitely pop up and

1749
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:11,400
please please please read all of my work

1750
01:11:16,070 --> 01:11:13,050
it's wonderful I'm just joking most of

1751
01:11:17,870 --> 01:11:16,080
the crap but if it's okay especially be

1752
01:11:19,820 --> 01:11:17,880
kind of interested in in the cultural

1753
01:11:22,250 --> 01:11:19,830
aspects of ufology or the fullest

1754
01:11:24,830 --> 01:11:22,260
philosophical aspects of ufology i don't

1755
01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:24,840
really talk a lot about like UFO cases

1756
01:11:30,050 --> 01:11:27,450
themselves I talk more about sort of the

1757
01:11:31,610 --> 01:11:30,060
general UFO discourse as a whole as a

1758
01:11:33,530 --> 01:11:31,620
cultural phenomenon so if that's kind of

1759
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:33,540
something that interests you terribly

1760
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:36,410
euronet that's awesome and it's such a

1761
01:11:45,050 --> 01:11:41,250
refreshing and and fresh take on the

1762
01:11:46,940 --> 01:11:45,060
entire topic like I said I I consume

1763
01:11:49,250 --> 01:11:46,950
your work only as fast as you can

1764
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:49,260
produce it so you know I get excited

1765
01:11:51,590 --> 01:11:50,610
every time I see you come up with

1766
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:51,600
something new

1767
01:11:55,970 --> 01:11:54,480
you challenge the norm and we can't ask

1768
01:11:57,740 --> 01:11:55,980
for more than that when we're looking at

1769
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:57,750
the UFO question and I do want to end

1770
01:12:03,500 --> 01:12:00,480
with them with a sentence you have here

1771
01:12:07,700 --> 01:12:03,510
that I I live by and I absolutely love

1772
01:12:09,530 --> 01:12:07,710
and that's this quote by clearly

1773
01:12:11,930 --> 01:12:09,540
establishing the spectrum of youthful

1774
01:12:14,450 --> 01:12:11,940
aaja Khalif we understand the playing

1775
01:12:16,370 --> 01:12:14,460
field who will play and who will warm

1776
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:16,380
the bench we just need to figure out

1777
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:18,570
what the game is now as a baseball

1778
01:12:23,810 --> 01:12:21,090
player this struck me on so many levels

1779
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:23,820
and I think that is kind of the message

1780
01:12:27,260 --> 01:12:25,050
we have to keep in mind when we're

1781
01:12:29,660 --> 01:12:27,270
looking at this is we may never know

1782
01:12:31,940 --> 01:12:29,670
what game were actually playing but we

1783
01:12:34,850 --> 01:12:31,950
are attempting to play it not knowing

1784
01:12:36,590 --> 01:12:34,860
what the real rules are and that's

1785
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:36,600
exciting to me and that's what you're

1786
01:12:42,650 --> 01:12:40,050
bringing forth again challenging the UFO

1787
01:12:44,030 --> 01:12:42,660
question so I can't thank you enough for

1788
01:12:46,370 --> 01:12:44,040
the work you do I look forward to

1789
01:12:47,870 --> 01:12:46,380
everything you got coming out MJ and

1790
01:12:49,010 --> 01:12:47,880
thank you again for joining me on

1791
01:12:50,540 --> 01:12:49,020
somewhere in the skies

1792
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:50,550
thanks very much has been a pleasure

1793
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:52,530
that's it for this week's episode my

1794
01:12:58,010 --> 01:12:55,050
thanks again - MJ Benitez you can find

1795
01:13:00,140 --> 01:12:58,020
all his work at tara obscura dotnet and

1796
01:13:02,780 --> 01:13:00,150
also check out his essay in the new book

1797
01:13:05,330 --> 01:13:02,790
ufos we're framing the debate there are

1798
01:13:07,820 --> 01:13:05,340
14 contributors to this book including

1799
01:13:09,620 --> 01:13:07,830
me so i may be a bit biased but it

1800
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:09,630
really is an awesome book you can find

1801
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:12,480
it on amazon in paperback and ebook if

1802
01:13:15,710 --> 01:13:13,890
you haven't already please consider

1803
01:13:18,980 --> 01:13:15,720
rating and reviewing the show on iTunes

1804
01:13:21,140 --> 01:13:18,990
it really helps us gain Numis years I've

1805
01:13:23,090 --> 01:13:21,150
also decided to extend the contest to

1806
01:13:24,980 --> 01:13:23,100
win a free copy of my book somewhere in

1807
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:24,990
the sky is a human approach to an alien

1808
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:27,450
phenomenon so between now and September

1809
01:13:32,180 --> 01:13:30,090
1st I'm giving away three copies all you

1810
01:13:34,130 --> 01:13:32,190
have to do is go to iTunes write and

1811
01:13:37,700 --> 01:13:34,140
review the show let me know what your

1812
01:13:39,410 --> 01:13:37,710
iTunes name or screenshot the review for

1813
01:13:41,990 --> 01:13:39,420
me anything you just send it to spread

1814
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:42,000
five one at hotmail.com just make sure I

1815
01:13:47,090 --> 01:13:44,850
see the rating and the reviews somehow

1816
01:13:49,730 --> 01:13:47,100
someway you'll automatically be entered

1817
01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:49,740
into a lottery to win one of three books

1818
01:13:53,990 --> 01:13:51,840
it only takes a few moments but again

1819
01:13:55,670 --> 01:13:54,000
guys it helps out more than you know if

1820
01:13:57,710 --> 01:13:55,680
you have guest star topic suggestions

1821
01:13:59,570 --> 01:13:57,720
you can contact me on the website or you

1822
01:14:01,280 --> 01:13:59,580
can also find all past episodes and

1823
01:14:03,530 --> 01:14:01,290
articles that's somewhere in the skies

1824
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:03,540
calm thank you so much again guys for

1825
01:14:07,370 --> 01:14:05,610
joining me today have a great weekend

1826
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:07,380
and remember keep your feet on the

1827
01:14:25,340 --> 01:14:09,330
ground but never stop searching

1828
01:14:28,130 --> 01:14:25,350
somewhere in the sky this has been some